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on this episode of skeptic oh he's the

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first guy to say okay let's put a

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meditator up we'll set up the classic

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double slit experiment with a little

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photon beam let's see if a meditator can

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affect that photon beam and the double

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slit experiment and again an astounding

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result I mean a statistically

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overwhelming result that yes human

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consciousness collapses the wavefunction

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Ddraig was a good friend of mine he is

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simply one of the most creative people

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we have in our field but I'm sad to

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report his idea of consciousness and

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wave functions are just demonstrably

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inconsistent with 80 years worth of

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experiment and theory it's just simply

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not the case I take for example and this

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is going to relate right back into your

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work in Stargate

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but the near-death experience science I

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mean there it's it's kind of game over

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because now we have the brain out of the

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equation the brain absolutely not I've

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just been engaged in a huge debate over

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the decision of near-death experiences

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arguing with my colleagues that that is

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hard evidence for survival of bodily

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death first off there's nobody that has

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had a near-death experience who is in

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fact dead that the difference cations

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recent meets we were going to if we were

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going to answer that I was read the

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literature in detail just finished

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reading a book about that by one of the

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biggest proponents er

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stay with us for skeptical

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics of course as you know I

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always say the same thing at the

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beginning I say controversial science

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but primarily what this show has dealt

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with is consciousness and this battle

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over the idea of whether consciousness

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you're a minute-by-minute experience is

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more than just your brain and of course

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that's important because if it is and it

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is because we've shown it over and over

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again but if it is that it more or less

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overturns science in some pretty

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important ways now for a long time it

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was always assumed that SCI effects ESP

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telepathy precognition that kind of

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stuff that if that was proven true then

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the materialist the mind equals brain

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folks would have to admit that they're

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wrong because the assertion being made

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and I always point to Daniel Dennett the

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philosopher who was famous back in the

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day when the atheists were kind of

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running the world of saying

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consciousness is an illusion and along

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with that was this idea that

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consciousness can do no work

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consciousness being this non-physical

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thing that's going on up there well that

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can't really do anything that can't

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really impact our physical world

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so if psy was shown to be happening then

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was assumed that it would be game over

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the non-physical is affecting the

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physical we can no longer rely on this

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scientific materialism and that of

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course is why there was this tremendous

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pushback on size so that James Randi

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folks and all the very materialistic

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people would just rail against

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parapsychology and all the size stuff as

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hard as they could and make up a bunch

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of crap that we've gone over again and

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again and again and the show to show

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that they're debunking of psy was really

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a sham which it is now also in that long

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list of things that got the strong

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pushback was remote viewing so if you go

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back 20 years ago what everyone's saying

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oh that never really happened it never

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really worked and then you had people

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coming out of the program going of

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course it worked and even had president

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saying oh yeah that was unbelievable

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what they found they found this missing

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plane all these stories came out that

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made it clear to anyone who is paying

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attention that yes something real

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was happening now all this is a lead up

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to how this show came to be because the

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other day I was watching this excellent

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video by the very excellent para

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psychologist dr. Jeffrey Mishlove who

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you might recall was on the show a long

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time ago probably need to have him back

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need to make a note of that but anyway

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on his new revamped version of thinking

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aloud he had on today's guest dr. EDA

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and I was rather stunned to find that

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here was a guy who is a PhD physicist

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ran the Stargate program for 10 years is

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absolutely certain from all his

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scientific training that this is

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something that really occurred that is

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psychics buying israel was real really

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happen they sat in this room and they

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saw stuff that was going on on the other

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side of the world he's saying

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operationally we know it happened

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experimentally we know it happened it

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happened get over it but at the same

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time what he's saying is that you know

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what I'm still a physicalist I'm still a

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materialist I'm still holding to the

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idea that it's all in the brain mind

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equals brain so of course that piqued my

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interest and I reached out to Ed and was

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able to get him to agree to come on the

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show to talk about so many things that

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I'm interested in now it turned out to

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be quite a contentious interview at

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times it's got a lot of strong opinions

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he's not afraid to express them and I as

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you know M generally not someone to back

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down from asking questions that I don't

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know sometimes do piss people off no

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it's a bunch of stuff in this interview

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that in the final analysis I think is a

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little bit out there but we can discuss

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that later and pull that apart in the

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forum but there's one thing that he said

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that I really did want to follow up on

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directly and that was his comment about

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Dean Radin because I've always found

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Dean Radin to be absolutely one of the

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smartest guys in the room when it comes

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to parapsychology and certainly a

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top-notch careful researcher so when

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Edie did his little schtick on Dean

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Raiden's recent double slit experiment I

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really knew I wanted to follow up with

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that I was able to have a little email

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correspondence with Dean and I will

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update you on what I discovered at the

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end of this show which is coming up

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today we welcome dr. edy made a skeptic

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Oh dr. May is a physicist with a PhD in

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low-energy experimental nuclear physics

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but is probably best known as being the

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former director of the u.s.

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intelligences psychic spy program code

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name project Stargate all the remote

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viewing stuff that you've heard so much

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about dr. May has been recognized with a

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Lifetime Achievement Award from the

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parapsychology Association and has

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authored a couple of books and of course

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probably dozens I'm sure it's hundreds

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of academic research papers in the field

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of parapsychology and is also the author

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of ESP worse east and west a book he

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co-authored with geomechanical Lloyd

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Arabic and Russian psychics by expert

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Victor ruble listeners might recall that

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we actually had Lloyd arbok on a couple

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years ago to talk about that very very

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fascinating book so heed as I was just

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mentioning there's a ton of stuff I'd

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love to talk about I'm certainly very

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honored and glad that you've joined me

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thanks so much for being here oh my

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pleasure Alex I think this would be a

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lot of fun and I helped inform it for

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some people let's go for it

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all right well let's go for it and let's

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start with a question that you suggested

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we might discuss and it is very

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interesting question at that here is the

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question you put to me that I might want

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to ask and put to you is given that SCI

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phenomena are so weak and difficult to

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observe why should anyone care and what

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struck me rather than ask that question

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directly is do you really think size

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phenomena are always weak and difficult

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to observe I certainly do in fact let me

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give you a little sort of a hint you

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know if you have a favorite band you

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enjoy listening to the last way you'd

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ever want to listen to it is through two

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tin cans and a string connecting them

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right if it sound horrible so you switch

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to AM radio and it sounds better but you

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know it still doesn't capture the

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nuances of the

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music then you switch to a famine it

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gets even better

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and finally you might get

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high-definition audio which is even the

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best what characterizes that string of

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stuff the answer is bandwidth how much

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how wide a frequencies can can the

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information come through we have a

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really good idea now qualitative for

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sure about how what the bandwidth the

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VSP is and to use a highly technical

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term which you might have to explain it

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sucks

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it's extremely slow and so the amount of

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information that's even in principle

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capable of going from a future or some

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event in Bombay India tomorrow to here

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now is is extremely limited in terms of

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the information that you can get that

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way okay but I guess I've turned that

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around and suggested you're talking

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about bandwidth within a realm that we

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didn't even think existed and a lot of

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people still don't think exists so you

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know weak and difficult maybe not very

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good compared to the Skype connection

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but compared to something we have

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absolute we don't even know what it is

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but given that we've established that

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there is something it's the only thing

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we have and let me put it kind of change

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the the framing of it from a scientific

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perspective you know like Daryl BEM

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recently published a meta-analysis of

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his precognition experiments that sure

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you were just kind of referring to the

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precognition aspect yeah he got an

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overall effect of Six Sigma I mean yeah

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that's off the charts that's decisive

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evidence the kind that any physicist

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would die for that's not fitting in the

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weakened difficult to observe category

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is it well I don't want to get really

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geeky on you I I was born a geek so

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please forgive me her and I'll try to

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make this a little simple no we're all

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we're all Kiki friends here it's no

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problem are you familiar with professor

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Jessica us statistician sure she's

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currently the chair of the statistics

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department and you

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of California at Irvine and I think she

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just stepped down from her year

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appointment as president of the American

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Statistical Association she's at that

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time the top statistician in the country

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and what she points out that the six

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segments figure you talk about that's

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related to so called p-values and the

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main thing that drives those big numbers

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is how many trials you take so if you

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ask what psychologists have been doing

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lately

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instead of being enamored with a big

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number like Six Sigma and that's very

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impressive for sure they switch to

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something called effect size which

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pretends it's a way of computing how how

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big and important the effect is given

274
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:09,730
that you only took a single trial rather

275
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than you know 15 or 100 Daryl BEM SPARC

276
00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:15,339
is brilliant I'm not denigrating his

277
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:17,680
work at all and six segment is very

278
00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:20,170
important but the overall effect size is

279
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pretty pretty weak right but what a lot

280
00:11:28,110 --> 00:11:24,520
of people would point out is that the

281
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only reason these guys switch to looking

282
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:30,610
at oh my gosh it's all about effect size

283
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:33,130
which really if you look at other areas

284
00:11:38,340 --> 00:11:35,770
of science we have all you look in your

285
00:11:41,970 --> 00:11:38,350
area of physics we have all sorts of

286
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:41,980
very very important phenomena that have

287
00:11:47,550 --> 00:11:45,250
extremely small effect sizes so what the

288
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:47,560
psychology people seem to have done to

289
00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:50,170
me is say gee we really don't like those

290
00:11:53,490 --> 00:11:52,180
kind of results that Daryl BEM and some

291
00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:53,500
of these other pair of psychologists are

292
00:11:58,350 --> 00:11:56,230
getting we need to challenge everything

293
00:12:01,800 --> 00:11:58,360
we're doing in psychology and the social

294
00:12:04,079 --> 00:12:01,810
sciences with regard to statistics you

295
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:04,089
just made my point for me the fact is

296
00:12:07,710 --> 00:12:05,650
that just because it's a weak and small

297
00:12:09,930 --> 00:12:07,720
effect doesn't mean it's unimportant or

298
00:12:11,790 --> 00:12:09,940
not real I mean some of it as you just

299
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:11,800
said some of most important things in

300
00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:14,290
physics and other areas of science have

301
00:12:19,170 --> 00:12:16,690
little tiny effect sizes but they are

302
00:12:21,329 --> 00:12:19,180
still extremely important and an

303
00:12:23,699 --> 00:12:21,339
important to figure out how in fact this

304
00:12:26,610 --> 00:12:23,709
works you said we don't have any idea

305
00:12:28,949 --> 00:12:26,620
how it works but we my colleague and I

306
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:28,959
have published in in Sage open which is

307
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:32,320
a respected online journal for human

308
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:35,170
oriented sciences what we call the

309
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:37,730
multiphasic model of precognition

310
00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:40,160
it does something really fun and the

311
00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:41,690
model may be completely wrong but

312
00:12:46,689 --> 00:12:43,760
there's one part of it that isn't that

313
00:12:48,970 --> 00:12:46,699
is we broke up the problem spaces of two

314
00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:48,980
chunks let's assume that someone's going

315
00:12:53,199 --> 00:12:51,260
to randomly generate an ESP target in

316
00:12:57,009 --> 00:12:53,209
Bombay India or Mumbai India tomorrow

317
00:13:00,370 --> 00:12:57,019
and how does that information get from

318
00:13:02,860 --> 00:13:00,380
there then to here now that's a physics

319
00:13:05,050 --> 00:13:02,870
problem only that doesn't depend upon

320
00:13:06,610 --> 00:13:05,060
any aspect of being human about

321
00:13:08,259 --> 00:13:06,620
consciousness or any of that stuff

322
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:08,269
don't we know that though how do we

323
00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:10,639
that's an assumption that way well it's

324
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:12,260
more than just assumption all the

325
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:13,970
neuroscience and all the physics suggest

326
00:13:17,889 --> 00:13:16,130
that's true that doesn't mean that it is

327
00:13:21,189 --> 00:13:17,899
true but right now that's the best we

328
00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:21,199
got and so one question is for example

329
00:13:24,850 --> 00:13:22,310
suppose you're sitting on the beach

330
00:13:28,269 --> 00:13:24,860
watching the Sun sunset with it read a

331
00:13:30,370 --> 00:13:28,279
good friend and how do you know what's

332
00:13:32,139 --> 00:13:30,380
happening at the Sun why is that so

333
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:32,149
beautiful as it sinks in the Pacific

334
00:13:36,910 --> 00:13:34,130
Ocean here in the west coast of the US

335
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:36,920
the answer to that is photons the

336
00:13:40,389 --> 00:13:38,959
signaling are coming from the Sun

337
00:13:43,030 --> 00:13:40,399
propagating through space in time

338
00:13:45,220 --> 00:13:43,040
through through time in space get to

339
00:13:47,889 --> 00:13:45,230
your retina and you have an internal

340
00:13:49,389 --> 00:13:47,899
experience right and I'm sitting next to

341
00:13:51,340 --> 00:13:49,399
you and have a totally different

342
00:13:54,129 --> 00:13:51,350
experience from the same set of photons

343
00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:54,139
coming at me how does that happen the

344
00:13:59,530 --> 00:13:56,930
answer how that happens is information

345
00:14:02,470 --> 00:13:59,540
is propagating through through space

346
00:14:05,019 --> 00:14:02,480
which is extremely well understood for

347
00:14:06,610 --> 00:14:05,029
the last hundred and twenty years so you

348
00:14:08,829 --> 00:14:06,620
know there are some physical realities

349
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:08,839
out there which are known to be true

350
00:14:14,740 --> 00:14:12,410
independent of human experience yes but

351
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:14,750
it does seem to ultimately come down to

352
00:14:19,569 --> 00:14:17,569
a matter of understanding consciousness

353
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:19,579
as best we can because that's what keeps

354
00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:22,610
creeping into the equation and I don't

355
00:14:27,370 --> 00:14:24,649
know that we've really tackled that

356
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:27,380
question at all in terms of what is

357
00:14:31,569 --> 00:14:29,600
consciousness what is necessary and

358
00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:31,579
sufficient to cause consciousness when

359
00:14:36,009 --> 00:14:33,350
does it begin when does it end

360
00:14:39,370 --> 00:14:36,019
does it collapse the wave function you

361
00:14:42,670 --> 00:14:39,380
know our friend dr. Dean Radin has at

362
00:14:44,590 --> 00:14:42,680
least taken a stab at saying okay

363
00:14:47,170 --> 00:14:44,600
there's this long-standing debate in

364
00:14:50,019 --> 00:14:47,180
physics regarding the observer effect

365
00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:50,029
and can consciousness collapse the wave

366
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:51,110
function

367
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:52,970
let's do an experiment and he's the

368
00:14:56,889 --> 00:14:54,320
first guy to say okay let's put a

369
00:14:58,810 --> 00:14:56,899
meditator up we'll set up the classic

370
00:15:01,990 --> 00:14:58,820
double slit experiment with a little

371
00:15:05,199 --> 00:15:02,000
photon beam let's see if a meditator can

372
00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:05,209
affect that photon beam of the double

373
00:15:09,940 --> 00:15:07,700
slit experiment and again an astounding

374
00:15:11,319 --> 00:15:09,950
result I mean statistically overwhelming

375
00:15:13,569 --> 00:15:11,329
result that yes

376
00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:13,579
human consciousness collapses the

377
00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:16,240
wavefunction so once we factor in

378
00:15:20,650 --> 00:15:18,560
consciousness or what we don't know

379
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:20,660
about consciousness I'm just not sure

380
00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:24,079
that we can be that sure about what's

381
00:15:30,490 --> 00:15:27,200
going on with ESP precognition for

382
00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:30,500
example oh this is a sounding a bit

383
00:15:35,380 --> 00:15:32,720
bragging in my part but as far as I know

384
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:35,390
right now I'm the only person in the

385
00:15:39,579 --> 00:15:37,730
entire field of parapsychology that

386
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:39,589
spent ten years doing quantum physics

387
00:15:45,009 --> 00:15:43,519
experimentally and Dean rate was a good

388
00:15:46,449 --> 00:15:45,019
friend of mine he is simply one of the

389
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:46,459
most creative people we have in our

390
00:15:52,180 --> 00:15:49,490
field but I'm sad to report his idea of

391
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:52,190
consciousness and and wave functions are

392
00:15:57,610 --> 00:15:55,970
just demonstrably inconsistent with 80

393
00:15:59,290 --> 00:15:57,620
years worth of experiment and theory

394
00:16:02,500 --> 00:15:59,300
it's just simply not the case

395
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:02,510
now with his permission in that double

396
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:03,529
slit experiment

397
00:16:07,569 --> 00:16:05,930
I said Dean there are no mysteries of

398
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:07,579
the double slit experiment do you mind

399
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:10,250
if I modeled that mathematically he said

400
00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:13,130
by all means so I was able to set

401
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:15,380
together a mathematical program using

402
00:16:20,009 --> 00:16:17,570
something called MATLAB that doesn't

403
00:16:23,319 --> 00:16:20,019
matter and I was able to reproduce

404
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:23,329
mathematically all the figures in his

405
00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:26,000
paper all right and I had only one

406
00:16:31,329 --> 00:16:28,190
what's called free parameter I said okay

407
00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:31,339
if Dean is right and leaving whether

408
00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:33,110
it's whether it's consciousness or

409
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:35,660
quantum mechanics the observable is he

410
00:16:40,090 --> 00:16:37,610
got a really strong effect no question

411
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:40,100
the question then is how many [\h__\h] how

412
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:43,010
many photons would have to be and I'm

413
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:45,410
putting in air quotes coerced to go

414
00:16:48,610 --> 00:16:47,360
through one and only one slip because

415
00:16:51,250 --> 00:16:48,620
that's the only way he can get the

416
00:16:54,670 --> 00:16:51,260
effect he agrees with that turns out is

417
00:16:56,980 --> 00:16:54,680
a tad under 90% of the photons and even

418
00:16:59,260 --> 00:16:56,990
he says that's extremely unlikely

419
00:17:02,439 --> 00:16:59,270
now there's another explanation for that

420
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:02,449
same data and it comes with what's

421
00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:03,690
called experimenter if

422
00:17:09,530 --> 00:17:07,230
or approach a mathematical model called

423
00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:09,540
decision augmentation theory when I

424
00:17:13,819 --> 00:17:12,270
applied that to his data it fell right

425
00:17:16,670 --> 00:17:13,829
in line so there are at least two

426
00:17:19,130 --> 00:17:16,680
competing hypotheses that would explain

427
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:19,140
the same data and in my view of quantum

428
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:21,600
mechanics it's not a good way to go so

429
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:23,730
my kids I could tell you why please go

430
00:17:29,690 --> 00:17:26,850
ahead it's very simple for that to work

431
00:17:32,090 --> 00:17:29,700
the wavefunction of the brain has to go

432
00:17:35,540 --> 00:17:32,100
out of the skull across I've been to his

433
00:17:37,790 --> 00:17:35,550
laboratory up in in Marin County you

434
00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:37,800
have to go it has to go like two or

435
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:39,510
three meters across the let the lab

436
00:17:44,900 --> 00:17:42,690
through a steel wall into an apparatus

437
00:17:46,850 --> 00:17:44,910
which was also made of metal so the

438
00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:46,860
question is can weight functions do that

439
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:49,740
in the only way you can have a coherent

440
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:52,050
wave function that goes that far is that

441
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:54,690
the origin in this case the brain has to

442
00:17:59,840 --> 00:17:56,970
act like a collective quantum mechanical

443
00:18:02,210 --> 00:17:59,850
thing so do you happen to know but the

444
00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:02,220
current record is and physicists compete

445
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:04,710
all the time to say what is the largest

446
00:18:09,650 --> 00:18:07,170
chunk we can show that acts like a

447
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:09,660
collective quantum mechanical device sir

448
00:18:13,910 --> 00:18:11,970
quantum mechanical system the current

449
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:13,920
record at least a year and a half ago it

450
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:17,610
may be broken now is 500,000 rubidium

451
00:18:22,340 --> 00:18:19,650
ions four mediums one of the elements

452
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:22,350
and they are able to demonstrate that

453
00:18:27,530 --> 00:18:24,930
those 500,000 rubidium atoms which is

454
00:18:30,380 --> 00:18:27,540
too small respect to see without it you

455
00:18:32,270 --> 00:18:30,390
know with the unaided eye can act as a

456
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:32,280
collective quantum mechanical thing and

457
00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:33,840
have it one wave function that describes

458
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:36,510
the whole system that's the good news

459
00:18:42,140 --> 00:18:39,570
the bad news is it's millions of

460
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:42,150
wandering billions of a few degrees

461
00:18:47,170 --> 00:18:44,610
above absolute zero and if you raise the

462
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:47,180
temperature every slicing it goes away

463
00:18:51,170 --> 00:18:49,470
there is certainly a collective wave

464
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:51,180
function for the brain and a bowling

465
00:18:55,670 --> 00:18:53,490
ball but the extension doesn't even get

466
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:55,680
through the skull and that I'm not

467
00:18:59,930 --> 00:18:57,840
making that up that's the end result of

468
00:19:02,360 --> 00:18:59,940
theory and experiment for 80 some odd

469
00:19:04,130 --> 00:19:02,370
years very good and I'm glad you added

470
00:19:05,780 --> 00:19:04,140
that part that you're not making it up

471
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:05,790
not that in every thinks that you're

472
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:08,510
making it up but more importantly I do

473
00:19:15,470 --> 00:19:12,330
understand why physicists like yourself

474
00:19:16,820 --> 00:19:15,480
get frustrated with people kind of

475
00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:16,830
slopping around some

476
00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:19,500
these quantum physics turn and terms and

477
00:19:24,529 --> 00:19:22,529
not acknowledging the amount of real

478
00:19:27,019 --> 00:19:24,539
work and real math I mean if anyone

479
00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:27,029
could read these favors the math just

480
00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:29,070
becomes an immediate barrier you go holy

481
00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:31,260
crap you mean that's how they know what

482
00:19:39,620 --> 00:19:34,350
they know kind of stuff but at the same

483
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:39,630
time I do understand the appeal of Dean

484
00:19:44,149 --> 00:19:41,490
Radin taking things to that level and

485
00:19:47,539 --> 00:19:44,159
not only the appeal of it I think it

486
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:47,549
gets at the central question that you

487
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:49,350
yourself acknowledges still the question

488
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:51,690
you know what really is going on and you

489
00:19:55,519 --> 00:19:53,490
have one camp and this you have none

490
00:19:58,399 --> 00:19:55,529
there's this other camp that says no it

491
00:20:01,639 --> 00:19:58,409
really does suggest a different way of

492
00:20:05,060 --> 00:20:01,649
thinking about consciousness a way that

493
00:20:07,399 --> 00:20:05,070
kind of shatters the materialistic mind

494
00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:07,409
equals brain paradigm that we're on and

495
00:20:12,049 --> 00:20:10,190
really I think it's fundamentally to

496
00:20:14,060 --> 00:20:12,059
answering the second part of your

497
00:20:17,629 --> 00:20:14,070
question your original question of why

498
00:20:20,060 --> 00:20:17,639
should we care I mean I think that's why

499
00:20:23,330 --> 00:20:20,070
we really care is because if

500
00:20:26,539 --> 00:20:23,340
consciousness really is different than

501
00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:26,549
this materialistic mind equal brain kind

502
00:20:31,250 --> 00:20:28,590
of thing then we have to really rethink

503
00:20:34,399 --> 00:20:31,260
a lot of things in science and we've

504
00:20:36,889 --> 00:20:34,409
been down this path ed on this show and

505
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:36,899
that's why I mean I think the size stuff

506
00:20:41,629 --> 00:20:39,450
is interesting and fun to talk about up

507
00:20:43,879 --> 00:20:41,639
to a point but where the rubber really

508
00:20:48,110 --> 00:20:43,889
meets the road is when you look at some

509
00:20:49,399 --> 00:20:48,120
related phenomena I mean I take for

510
00:20:51,769 --> 00:20:49,409
example and this is going to relate

511
00:20:54,169 --> 00:20:51,779
right back into your work in Stargate

512
00:20:56,149 --> 00:20:54,179
but the near-death experience science I

513
00:20:58,549 --> 00:20:56,159
mean they're it's it's kind of game over

514
00:21:03,110 --> 00:20:58,559
because now we have the brain out of the

515
00:21:04,940 --> 00:21:03,120
equation the brain oh absolutely not

516
00:21:06,049 --> 00:21:04,950
I've just been engaged in a huge debate

517
00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:06,059
over the decision of near-death

518
00:21:12,860 --> 00:21:09,510
experiences arguing with my colleagues

519
00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:12,870
that that is hard evidence for survival

520
00:21:17,090 --> 00:21:15,750
of bodily death first off there's nobody

521
00:21:20,779 --> 00:21:17,100
that has had a near-death experience

522
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:20,789
who's in fact dead that the difference

523
00:21:26,029 --> 00:21:24,330
cannot recent needs we were going to if

524
00:21:28,279 --> 00:21:26,039
we were going to answer that I was read

525
00:21:29,790 --> 00:21:28,289
the literature in detail just finished

526
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:29,800
eating a book about the

527
00:21:34,380 --> 00:21:31,930
by one of the biggest proponents er that

528
00:21:36,030 --> 00:21:34,390
is just not just not it's just not let

529
00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:36,040
me point you to the people you'd want to

530
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:38,440
talk to the people you'd want to talk to

531
00:21:43,140 --> 00:21:40,510
to really get at that question is what

532
00:21:45,450 --> 00:21:43,150
is death is you'd want to talk to people

533
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:45,460
like a cardiologist like Penn van lama

534
00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:48,880
or radiation oncologists like Jeff long

535
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:51,070
but who you'd really want to talk to is

536
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:53,050
you'd really want to look at somebody

537
00:21:58,920 --> 00:21:56,320
who's an expert in resuscitation who's

538
00:22:01,140 --> 00:21:58,930
an expert in dying so if you look at one

539
00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:01,150
of the world leading experts is dr. Sam

540
00:22:05,610 --> 00:22:03,940
Parr Nia formerly at Cornell well known

541
00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:05,620
for his near-death experience research

542
00:22:10,020 --> 00:22:08,200
he has studied this more extensively

543
00:22:14,910 --> 00:22:10,030
than anyone else in terms of what is

544
00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:14,920
really death what are you sure and I'm

545
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:17,020
not I'm speaking to our audience in

546
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:18,610
general otherwise it sounds like it's

547
00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:22,080
like baseball so Sam party it has spent

548
00:22:28,110 --> 00:22:25,240
20 years specifically answering that

549
00:22:30,450 --> 00:22:28,120
charge in that claim and he along with

550
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,460
every other near-death experience

551
00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:32,320
researcher who's really published in

552
00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:34,000
this field has come to the same

553
00:22:38,850 --> 00:22:36,940
conclusion that yes this is highly

554
00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:38,860
suggestive that consciousness does

555
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:46,390
survive bodily death okay can i express

556
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:50,770
them an alternative view yes please go

557
00:22:55,650 --> 00:22:51,850
ahead thank you

558
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:55,660
first off if you I was when we said

559
00:23:00,810 --> 00:22:57,690
close friends with but I was certainly a

560
00:23:02,970 --> 00:23:00,820
welcome to colleague and had many P in

561
00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:02,980
person conversations with the fellow

562
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:05,350
that spent his entire career looking at

563
00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:07,210
survival after bodily death that's Ian

564
00:23:14,070 --> 00:23:10,150
Stevenson a physician from the

565
00:23:17,370 --> 00:23:14,080
University of Virginia sure he would not

566
00:23:19,530 --> 00:23:17,380
agree that NDA and E's survival of that

567
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:19,540
is anything at all what he was concerned

568
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:21,730
about in terms of survival of Beauvais

569
00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:24,640
death think the question which I am

570
00:23:27,870 --> 00:23:27,130
definitely interested in and don't know

571
00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:27,880
the answer

572
00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:30,910
in fact worse I would like Stevenson's

573
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:32,440
research to be true it's much more

574
00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:34,960
interesting than my personal view at the

575
00:23:39,810 --> 00:23:37,990
moment as a materialist that is when you

576
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:39,820
die and I cook you in the crematorium

577
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:41,850
and your brain turns out to be

578
00:23:48,289 --> 00:23:46,080
white ash that's dead the question is do

579
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:48,299
you survive is there some aspects of

580
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:50,910
Alex that survives that particular

581
00:23:56,750 --> 00:23:54,090
experience that is what I call survivor

582
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:56,760
left a bottle of death the fact that you

583
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:59,760
meet the medical definition of death I

584
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:01,679
agree in fact they even do as part of

585
00:24:07,460 --> 00:24:05,039
the cardiac and brain surgery literature

586
00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:07,470
that they actually kill you in quotes on

587
00:24:11,150 --> 00:24:10,049
the end of the table by taking out a lot

588
00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:11,160
of your blood lower your body

589
00:24:15,049 --> 00:24:13,500
temperature so you go flatline you meet

590
00:24:17,419 --> 00:24:15,059
the current your current medical

591
00:24:20,270 --> 00:24:17,429
definition of death that's not what

592
00:24:22,610 --> 00:24:20,280
Stevenson meant by survival if you ask

593
00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:22,620
do you survive the medical definition of

594
00:24:26,539 --> 00:24:25,020
death I have no problem you do but it

595
00:24:28,820 --> 00:24:26,549
seems to me we need to have a better

596
00:24:30,890 --> 00:24:28,830
definition of death these days I think

597
00:24:33,770 --> 00:24:30,900
we're kind of getting into a semantics

598
00:24:36,169 --> 00:24:33,780
game the reason why that is the medical

599
00:24:40,159 --> 00:24:36,179
definition of death is what goes along

600
00:24:42,669 --> 00:24:40,169
with that is 50 60 years of all the

601
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:42,679
evidence we have of brain functioning of

602
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:45,570
EEG functioning both in animals and

603
00:24:51,740 --> 00:24:48,510
humans to suggest that we have no way of

604
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:51,750
understanding how the human brain could

605
00:24:56,779 --> 00:24:54,240
generate anything like consciousness

606
00:25:00,580 --> 00:24:56,789
like experience like anything that these

607
00:25:03,740 --> 00:25:00,590
indie ears are experiencing after

608
00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:03,750
medically defined clinical death so

609
00:25:06,260 --> 00:25:04,830
that's what they're really saying

610
00:25:08,899 --> 00:25:06,270
they're saying we have all this research

611
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:08,909
that suggests there's no way any of that

612
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:11,250
stuff can be happening when someone is

613
00:25:16,399 --> 00:25:14,010
considered medically dead the question

614
00:25:18,380 --> 00:25:16,409
becomes and you know I've spent 50 years

615
00:25:21,380 --> 00:25:18,390
in fact researching parapsychological

616
00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:21,390
issues what we don't have any knowledge

617
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:24,750
of Alex as when information becomes

618
00:25:29,630 --> 00:25:27,330
available to the recipient so here you

619
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:29,640
are the operating table you are declared

620
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:32,400
dead and you get revived by modern

621
00:25:37,610 --> 00:25:34,950
medical technology how sweet that is and

622
00:25:40,460 --> 00:25:37,620
you have some experience while you were

623
00:25:42,260 --> 00:25:40,470
quote dead the question becomes and

624
00:25:44,020 --> 00:25:42,270
there's yet no answer to this

625
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:44,030
when did you acquire that information

626
00:25:50,510 --> 00:25:47,690
when your brain was gone in flatlined or

627
00:25:53,270 --> 00:25:50,520
pre consignee before you were hit or

628
00:25:55,690 --> 00:25:53,280
post cognitive made after you wake up we

629
00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:55,700
nobody knows the answer that

630
00:25:59,890 --> 00:25:57,890
and I wish the hell I did but I don't

631
00:26:01,630 --> 00:25:59,900
know the answer to that one but it

632
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:01,640
raises the question when that

633
00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:04,010
information became available well as

634
00:26:09,730 --> 00:26:06,860
listeners to this show we'll be tired of

635
00:26:12,130 --> 00:26:09,740
me talking about by now I think we have

636
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:12,140
a pretty good indication of that or at

637
00:26:21,910 --> 00:26:15,410
least an indication come on Alex

638
00:26:24,190 --> 00:26:21,920
nobody does let me tell you about the

639
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:24,200
research so if you go look at dr. Penney

640
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:26,720
Sartori you know a colleague of both

641
00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:29,770
sampar Nia and Peter fennec both very

642
00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:33,230
esteemed researchers not just NDE

643
00:26:37,780 --> 00:26:35,270
researchers but medical researchers if

644
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:37,790
you go look at her research also this

645
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:42,170
research was replicated by dr. Jan

646
00:26:47,050 --> 00:26:43,610
Holden at the University of North Texas

647
00:26:50,860 --> 00:26:47,060
what they did is looked at in the ears

648
00:26:53,620 --> 00:26:50,870
ability to recollect their resuscitation

649
00:26:55,450 --> 00:26:53,630
process right so but you don't know nor

650
00:26:59,500 --> 00:26:55,460
do they know when they got that

651
00:27:01,630 --> 00:26:59,510
information that's the key here I'm not

652
00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:01,640
arguing that they that that information

653
00:27:05,770 --> 00:27:03,590
doesn't appear to be really stunning it

654
00:27:08,230 --> 00:27:05,780
it is I'm agreeing with that when I know

655
00:27:11,020 --> 00:27:08,240
from my own research and that of many

656
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:11,030
others we wish to hell we had control

657
00:27:15,250 --> 00:27:13,730
over when one gathers that information

658
00:27:16,980 --> 00:27:15,260
let me give you one example an

659
00:27:20,650 --> 00:27:16,990
experimental example we did at Stanford

660
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:20,660
Stanford we were looking at have you

661
00:27:23,890 --> 00:27:21,530
ever heard of something called

662
00:27:26,530 --> 00:27:23,900
event-related desynchronization let me

663
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:26,540
explain what that is every known human

664
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:30,290
activity interrupts alpha to be crude

665
00:27:35,770 --> 00:27:33,530
about the brain in idle it produces

666
00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:35,780
alpha rhythms and everything it is known

667
00:27:40,660 --> 00:27:38,360
that a human can do at least momentarily

668
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:40,670
interrupts that alpha rhythm and that's

669
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:42,250
called be technically event-related

670
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:44,410
desynchronization so we argued well if

671
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:46,850
thinking about something or having a

672
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:50,450
stimulus or whatever interrupts alpha so

673
00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:53,090
to musty ESP and remote viewing and all

674
00:27:58,930 --> 00:27:55,460
that should interrupted what we did a

675
00:28:02,020 --> 00:27:58,940
very careful experiment at Stanford run

676
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:02,030
by Stephen Walter Stephen Laberge at

677
00:28:07,030 --> 00:28:04,490
Stanford at the time was to see whether

678
00:28:08,290 --> 00:28:07,040
we could see alpha rhythms going away

679
00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:08,300
when someone was sake

680
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:09,200
the

681
00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:11,360
probably had we didn't see it even

682
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:13,279
though we had an independent measure a

683
00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:15,289
very caught high quality very

684
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:17,510
statistically significant remote viewing

685
00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:19,850
while we were measuring their EEG

686
00:28:24,460 --> 00:28:21,350
brainwaves looking for alpha power

687
00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:24,470
changes the answer is when Jo mcmoneagle

688
00:28:28,090 --> 00:28:26,000
one of the best remote viewers in the

689
00:28:30,879 --> 00:28:28,100
country were becoming driving to

690
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:30,889
Stanford he'd have a psychic hit before

691
00:28:35,350 --> 00:28:33,049
he even got into the laboratory not

692
00:28:37,450 --> 00:28:35,360
under his control him then when you put

693
00:28:39,129 --> 00:28:37,460
him in the EEG he's not being psychic at

694
00:28:40,659 --> 00:28:39,139
all where Zoey is recalling something

695
00:28:43,509 --> 00:28:40,669
that happened from 20 minutes earlier

696
00:28:45,970 --> 00:28:43,519
that is a problem that all of us have

697
00:28:49,539 --> 00:28:45,980
including the empty ears researchers

698
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:49,549
right but it takes on a different aspect

699
00:28:56,379 --> 00:28:52,850
or a different question when those

700
00:28:58,990 --> 00:28:56,389
events happen after we die right so back

701
00:29:01,600 --> 00:28:59,000
to you know penny Sartorius research if

702
00:29:03,940 --> 00:29:01,610
you've medically dead that is your brain

703
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:03,950
is out of the equation and then things

704
00:29:07,889 --> 00:29:05,570
continue and you have this cont to it

705
00:29:10,389 --> 00:29:07,899
you know we have to say in the NDE

706
00:29:13,870 --> 00:29:10,399
literature and that science there's a

707
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:13,880
continuity of experience right so I die

708
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:16,370
I'm outside of my body I'm seeing

709
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:19,610
everything happen I medically pronounced

710
00:29:25,570 --> 00:29:21,710
dead now they're doing the resuscitation

711
00:29:27,460 --> 00:29:25,580
and I recall all that there is this

712
00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:27,470
continuity of experience so before you

713
00:29:31,299 --> 00:29:29,809
can say slow down I'm not gonna let you

714
00:29:33,580 --> 00:29:31,309
get away with that when you say

715
00:29:35,529 --> 00:29:33,590
continuity experiments experience you

716
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:35,539
don't know whether it's continuous or

717
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:38,480
not because they turn or do you know

718
00:29:42,419 --> 00:29:40,370
that cannot report to you while the

719
00:29:44,860 --> 00:29:42,429
brain is dis functioning all you know is

720
00:29:46,990 --> 00:29:44,870
beforehand they did have some experience

721
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,000
after hand when they wake up they have

722
00:29:51,610 --> 00:29:49,039
some experience and they report to you

723
00:29:53,950 --> 00:29:51,620
afterwards what they saw while they were

724
00:29:56,379 --> 00:29:53,960
quote dead you don't know whether they

725
00:29:59,200 --> 00:29:56,389
got that after retro cognitively by

726
00:30:02,409 --> 00:29:59,210
normal ESP way to do it you can't do

727
00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:02,419
that you just can't well I mean that

728
00:30:07,450 --> 00:30:04,630
really gets at the heart of some kind of

729
00:30:09,310 --> 00:30:07,460
philosophical question oh it's by direct

730
00:30:12,610 --> 00:30:09,320
measure in the laboratory my friend

731
00:30:14,379 --> 00:30:12,620
direct measure about when SCI is

732
00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:14,389
available to people we've been looking

733
00:30:21,340 --> 00:30:17,360
at this for 50 years it's not it's just

734
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:21,350
not philosophy it is in the sense of the

735
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:22,770
the assumption

736
00:30:29,180 --> 00:30:26,010
that consciousness is a product of the

737
00:30:31,490 --> 00:30:29,190
brain is an assumption and what a lot of

738
00:30:34,010 --> 00:30:31,500
people are doing looking at this same

739
00:30:36,740 --> 00:30:34,020
data is saying we need to challenge that

740
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:36,750
assumption and somehow look at a model

741
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:38,480
where consciousness is somehow

742
00:30:42,830 --> 00:30:40,770
fundamental to this whole experience and

743
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:42,840
I think for a lot of people including

744
00:30:46,550 --> 00:30:44,910
myself it then offers a better

745
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:46,560
explanation because you can say there's

746
00:30:52,370 --> 00:30:49,440
not this continuity of experience but my

747
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:52,380
whole point is that's how the purse

748
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:55,410
that's how people experience it that's

749
00:31:00,410 --> 00:30:57,930
how they report it in a death but as

750
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:00,420
Paul church-run points outed in engine

751
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:03,210
region seat of the soul that when we try

752
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:05,010
to figure out how the world works based

753
00:31:09,650 --> 00:31:07,530
on personal experience and all the big

754
00:31:10,370 --> 00:31:09,660
questions we have as humans gotten it

755
00:31:12,050 --> 00:31:10,380
wrong

756
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:12,060
this is another example of that I'm

757
00:31:16,460 --> 00:31:14,460
afraid by the way if you want a good

758
00:31:18,980 --> 00:31:16,470
definition of consciousness the best I'm

759
00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:18,990
aware where is from a fellow by the name

760
00:31:24,860 --> 00:31:21,600
agree on to Nonie he's written a

761
00:31:25,970 --> 00:31:24,870
fabulous book called fee avoids from the

762
00:31:27,950 --> 00:31:25,980
brain to the soul

763
00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:27,960
and yes it's a materialist perspective

764
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:30,300
that the that the mind and brain are

765
00:31:34,430 --> 00:31:32,250
equivalent which is my current position

766
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:34,440
I'm willing to be talked out of it I

767
00:31:38,030 --> 00:31:36,240
didn't start there in my career in that

768
00:31:40,190 --> 00:31:38,040
direction but all the data that I'm

769
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:40,200
familiar with leads me in that including

770
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:43,170
the NDE work so why don't we talk about

771
00:31:46,940 --> 00:31:44,640
something else but you being right

772
00:31:48,830 --> 00:31:46,950
interesting okay well I don't know I

773
00:31:51,020 --> 00:31:48,840
think this is pretty interesting I think

774
00:31:53,090 --> 00:31:51,030
it's pretty sociable in the area of my

775
00:31:55,130 --> 00:31:53,100
expertise you're wasting your time with

776
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:55,140
me you should get somebody like Stephen

777
00:32:00,980 --> 00:31:58,080
Schwartz is a really clever guy or ed

778
00:32:03,260 --> 00:32:00,990
Kelly I think you did an interview ed at

779
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:03,270
one time Stephen Schwartz of interviewed

780
00:32:08,930 --> 00:32:06,330
him too and I interviewed Jeffery

781
00:32:10,670 --> 00:32:08,940
Schwartz as well from UCLA this topic we

782
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:10,680
talk about a lot so know we can move on

783
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:12,930
but I'll move on only slightly because

784
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:14,010
you know you're friends with

785
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:16,410
geomechanical you worked with him for a

786
00:32:22,340 --> 00:32:19,710
long time 30 years is known as psychics

787
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:22,350
by number one as part of the Stanford

788
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:24,090
assertive just one with about a dozen

789
00:32:29,810 --> 00:32:26,610
people I work with the equal ability

790
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:29,820
yeah so when I interviewed Joe a couple

791
00:32:33,410 --> 00:32:31,050
years ago one of the things I found

792
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:33,420
fascinating about his story and I'm sure

793
00:32:39,299 --> 00:32:36,010
you know this is his own near-death

794
00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:39,309
yes that's more than one well his first

795
00:32:43,950 --> 00:32:41,590
one as I heard it was you know he's a

796
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:43,960
spa I mean a real like in the movies

797
00:32:48,270 --> 00:32:46,090
kind of spy and he's over there in East

798
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:48,280
Germany or right on the border and he

799
00:32:53,730 --> 00:32:50,320
suspects that they tried to kill him

800
00:32:55,230 --> 00:32:53,740
they tried to poison him so he dies if

801
00:32:56,850 --> 00:32:55,240
you will medically and he has this

802
00:32:59,159 --> 00:32:56,860
out-of-body experience he sees himself

803
00:33:02,070 --> 00:32:59,169
being wheeled to a hospital and

804
00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:02,080
miraculously they bring him back mm he

805
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:05,470
comes back and he's face to face with

806
00:33:09,539 --> 00:33:07,570
our via intelligence officers and say

807
00:33:12,289 --> 00:33:09,549
hey what happened where are you you know

808
00:33:15,450 --> 00:33:12,299
and he then recounts his whole

809
00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:15,460
near-death experience and it's a classic

810
00:33:20,010 --> 00:33:17,740
kind of near-death experience sure the

811
00:33:21,570 --> 00:33:20,020
the interesting thing I think about that

812
00:33:24,990 --> 00:33:21,580
story or one of the interesting things

813
00:33:27,510 --> 00:33:25,000
is that as Joe tells it he shows up at

814
00:33:29,909 --> 00:33:27,520
Stanford Research Institute a few years

815
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:29,919
later interviewing to be part of the

816
00:33:34,530 --> 00:33:32,320
Stargate program Hayes there with her

817
00:33:36,539 --> 00:33:34,540
you know dr. Hale put off Russell talk

818
00:33:38,010 --> 00:33:36,549
really top-notch scientists a lot of

819
00:33:40,260 --> 00:33:38,020
times we throw around those names and

820
00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:40,270
think who they are I mean these guys are

821
00:33:44,250 --> 00:33:42,280
really really top-notch scientists and

822
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:44,260
he's talking about joining the program

823
00:33:50,549 --> 00:33:47,250
and they open up his top-secret

824
00:33:53,940 --> 00:33:50,559
personnel file and out of it they pull

825
00:33:55,770 --> 00:33:53,950
Raymond Moody's book life after life and

826
00:33:59,460 --> 00:33:55,780
they go okay great

827
00:34:02,130 --> 00:33:59,470
this guy is the kind of guy we need and

828
00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:02,140
that tells me two important things

829
00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:05,830
number one near-death experiences or

830
00:34:12,109 --> 00:34:08,950
near-death experiencers have often for a

831
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:12,119
long time reported an increased ability

832
00:34:18,690 --> 00:34:16,480
to perform psychic feats this kind of

833
00:34:21,210 --> 00:34:18,700
connection with the psychic is enhanced

834
00:34:23,419 --> 00:34:21,220
after their near-death experience but

835
00:34:25,919 --> 00:34:23,429
the other thing that tells me is that

836
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:25,929
the United States intelligence was all

837
00:34:33,119 --> 00:34:29,520
over this stuff from the beginning I

838
00:34:36,330 --> 00:34:33,129
have to stop you there you know the CIA

839
00:34:38,700 --> 00:34:36,340
released about 89 thousand pages of the

840
00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:38,710
entire stardate record dating back to

841
00:34:46,260 --> 00:34:43,030
1972 through 1995 all right my colleague

842
00:34:48,020 --> 00:34:46,270
and I are just close to finishing a

843
00:34:50,720 --> 00:34:48,030
series of Forli

844
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:50,730
volumes of what we're calling the

845
00:34:56,450 --> 00:34:53,040
Stargate archives we are intimately

846
00:34:58,910 --> 00:34:56,460
familiar with all the back and forth

847
00:35:02,300 --> 00:34:58,920
within the agencies with various

848
00:35:04,610 --> 00:35:02,310
agencies CIA and as saying what have you

849
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:04,620
as well as all the work that was done in

850
00:35:09,260 --> 00:35:06,810
estarán of course I was there from 1976

851
00:35:13,790 --> 00:35:09,270
onward I was there before German monitor

852
00:35:15,950 --> 00:35:13,800
was and I guarantee you that the federal

853
00:35:16,610 --> 00:35:15,960
government was not in the slightest bit

854
00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:16,620
interested

855
00:35:21,950 --> 00:35:18,960
other than the materialist approach and

856
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:21,960
I can demonstrate that by hard memos go

857
00:35:28,370 --> 00:35:24,800
back and forth between the CIA di and us

858
00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:28,380
so it's a wonderful story and let me

859
00:35:34,250 --> 00:35:31,500
another PostScript to that is as I told

860
00:35:36,110 --> 00:35:34,260
Joe Connelly I'm not like a medic damn

861
00:35:36,290 --> 00:35:36,120
it you're really beginning to piss me

862
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:36,300
off

863
00:35:40,250 --> 00:35:38,460
I John McMahon ago is a damn good

864
00:35:41,540 --> 00:35:40,260
psychic and a personal friend of mine I

865
00:35:44,090 --> 00:35:41,550
will travel to the end of the earth for

866
00:35:46,370 --> 00:35:44,100
brothers but he it will be the first to

867
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:46,380
tell you that he is only one of about a

868
00:35:51,980 --> 00:35:48,720
dozen people with equal kinds of skill

869
00:35:54,340 --> 00:35:51,990
and none of the others zero of the

870
00:35:56,270 --> 00:35:54,350
others have nearby death experiences a

871
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:56,280
near-death experience may be a

872
00:36:00,100 --> 00:35:58,050
sufficient condition for good psychic

873
00:36:02,510 --> 00:36:00,110
functioning but it is by no means

874
00:36:05,870 --> 00:36:02,520
necessary to be top of the line good

875
00:36:07,610 --> 00:36:05,880
psychics and that's a problem and I

876
00:36:10,820 --> 00:36:07,620
don't know why you're getting pissed off

877
00:36:13,850 --> 00:36:10,830
when I'm telling you at a Joe's story

878
00:36:16,340 --> 00:36:13,860
this is what joe says April a with

879
00:36:19,130 --> 00:36:16,350
Johnny Monaco story and that was not we

880
00:36:21,830 --> 00:36:19,140
did not do the Raymond movie anything on

881
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:21,840
our project we just didn't didn't say

882
00:36:27,590 --> 00:36:24,960
that you did I said that out of his he

883
00:36:31,610 --> 00:36:27,600
was surprised that out of his top secret

884
00:36:34,580 --> 00:36:31,620
dossier they pull Raymond Moody's book

885
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:34,590
and that was the connection that he made

886
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:36,810
so you know because he actually

887
00:36:41,870 --> 00:36:39,810
corrected me during the interview I said

888
00:36:44,780 --> 00:36:41,880
you know you were surprised I bet you

889
00:36:46,970 --> 00:36:44,790
were surprised to know that they had

890
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:46,980
some knowledge of this and he said no

891
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:48,510
it's it's much more than that

892
00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:51,450
they were excited in welcoming to the

893
00:36:56,270 --> 00:36:54,150
fact that I had an NDE because they felt

894
00:36:59,000 --> 00:36:56,280
that that further qualified me in some

895
00:37:01,220 --> 00:36:59,010
way as being likely to be successful in

896
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:01,230
the program that's Joe's account

897
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:02,640
that's not I'm not adding anything to

898
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,710
that yeah that's fine that doesn't mean

899
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:06,000
that's what actually happened but that

900
00:37:10,250 --> 00:37:07,890
shows account and I know it shows

901
00:37:13,099 --> 00:37:10,260
account okay

902
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:13,109
I'm okay with that so you know you

903
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:16,130
welcome you have a ton of experience

904
00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:18,690
more than a ton of experience there so

905
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:20,460
we're just trying to get all this stuff

906
00:37:25,730 --> 00:37:24,450
out so people can sort it out but let's

907
00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:25,740
back up because you said a little bit

908
00:37:32,420 --> 00:37:29,310
tell folks again exactly what you did

909
00:37:33,890 --> 00:37:32,430
there when you did it and some of the

910
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:33,900
details that I think it's it's very

911
00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:35,910
important part of history let's get that

912
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:39,510
out there okay I did my first experiment

913
00:37:45,609 --> 00:37:42,960
in psychokinesis in 1971 where there was

914
00:37:49,130 --> 00:37:45,619
a postdoc in the cyclotron man at UC

915
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:49,140
Davis California and I've been

916
00:37:53,690 --> 00:37:51,510
interested I spent a year with an India

917
00:37:55,460 --> 00:37:53,700
of chasey miracles and when I returned

918
00:37:57,740 --> 00:37:55,470
back from India worked at Maimonides

919
00:37:59,810 --> 00:37:57,750
Medical Center in Brooklyn which was

920
00:38:03,410 --> 00:37:59,820
kind of the stalwart at the time nobody

921
00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:03,420
knew then about the program at SR I and

922
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:05,460
I ran into and became close friends with

923
00:38:11,930 --> 00:38:10,650
Ingo Swann at that time and excuse me we

924
00:38:14,330 --> 00:38:11,940
published some work together at

925
00:38:18,410 --> 00:38:14,340
Maimonides excuse me I'm just getting

926
00:38:20,030 --> 00:38:18,420
over cold and ego said you know there's

927
00:38:22,340 --> 00:38:20,040
this interesting program going on an

928
00:38:24,410 --> 00:38:22,350
SSRI I think you would be a welcome

929
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:24,420
contributor being a physicist and I said

930
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:26,400
okay fine I don't know what's going on

931
00:38:32,510 --> 00:38:29,130
out there long story short I joined in

932
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:32,520
70 late 75 maybe early 76 I can't

933
00:38:38,330 --> 00:38:34,560
remember exactly when as a consultant

934
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:38,340
and worked closely then as a consultant

935
00:38:43,849 --> 00:38:40,170
and I think I became a member of the

936
00:38:47,420 --> 00:38:43,859
full time staff in 79 maybe 78 it was

937
00:38:50,359 --> 00:38:47,430
before Fort Meade was established as a

938
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:50,369
senior research physicist Russell Targ

939
00:38:59,660 --> 00:38:54,330
left the program in 1982 and how put off

940
00:39:01,250 --> 00:38:59,670
left the program in 1985 80-85 and at

941
00:39:04,220 --> 00:39:01,260
that time I became the director of

942
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:04,230
research for the Stargate program it

943
00:39:08,510 --> 00:39:05,760
wasn't going to Stargate way back then

944
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:08,520
it was going to other different names so

945
00:39:14,930 --> 00:39:14,250
my job from 1985 to 1995 was in support

946
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:14,940
of the

947
00:39:19,490 --> 00:39:17,130
we group and others in terms of research

948
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:19,500
support my background in experimental

949
00:39:25,309 --> 00:39:21,119
nuclear physics was brought to the fore

950
00:39:28,309 --> 00:39:25,319
and we had a like it was not happened

951
00:39:30,349 --> 00:39:28,319
before my time on the program we had a

952
00:39:33,559 --> 00:39:30,359
scientific oversight committee made up

953
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:33,569
of 12 members of the who's who of

954
00:39:39,710 --> 00:39:37,920
science in the country and when are

955
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,720
these books will be released sometime

956
00:39:45,410 --> 00:39:41,760
next year you'll get the names of them

957
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:45,420
one of whom will reveal now the entrance

958
00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:47,220
requirement for the scientific Oversight

959
00:39:52,730 --> 00:39:49,680
Committee was determined by the army the

960
00:39:54,620 --> 00:39:52,740
MD require entrance requirement was you

961
00:39:57,380 --> 00:39:54,630
had to be skeptical about the phenomena

962
00:39:59,690 --> 00:39:57,390
to begin with however you had to profess

963
00:40:03,079 --> 00:39:59,700
open-mindedness and this was a five-year

964
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:03,089
commitment on their terms on to join

965
00:40:07,069 --> 00:40:05,010
this group and one of the things there

966
00:40:09,170 --> 00:40:07,079
were they had three jobs one is to

967
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:09,180
review our protocols before we actually

968
00:40:13,789 --> 00:40:11,250
did an experiment in other words approve

969
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:13,799
of them that went pretty easily because

970
00:40:17,779 --> 00:40:15,510
we know we were pretty good at what we

971
00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:17,789
were doing the second requirement or

972
00:40:23,029 --> 00:40:20,880
skill that they had or rather action

973
00:40:24,859 --> 00:40:23,039
they have was unannounced drop-in

974
00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:24,869
privileges well they actually never did

975
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:28,049
that but the the third responsibilities

976
00:40:32,089 --> 00:40:30,210
they had which was very very important

977
00:40:35,420 --> 00:40:32,099
and actually the pinnacle of my set my

978
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:35,430
intellectual career was that we had to

979
00:40:41,599 --> 00:40:38,730
send our final reports to them which

980
00:40:45,109 --> 00:40:41,609
they were to review in writing which is

981
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:45,119
part of the formal record as appended to

982
00:40:50,210 --> 00:40:47,690
our final reports to the class of

983
00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:50,220
everything that we concluded as the

984
00:40:55,339 --> 00:40:52,049
result of the experiment so we had done

985
00:40:59,329 --> 00:40:55,349
and there's good news and bad news the

986
00:41:01,250 --> 00:40:59,339
good news is we won about 85 percent of

987
00:41:02,930 --> 00:41:01,260
the arguments we got into them we've got

988
00:41:04,339 --> 00:41:02,940
to get in with them they came to us all

989
00:41:06,380 --> 00:41:04,349
right after reviewing all this stuff

990
00:41:10,789 --> 00:41:06,390
we'd sit around for two days arguing and

991
00:41:12,829 --> 00:41:10,799
that good news is we managed to win 85%

992
00:41:15,769 --> 00:41:12,839
of those arguments the better news by

993
00:41:19,099 --> 00:41:15,779
far the most fantastic news was the 15%

994
00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:19,109
we lost with them we sharply improved

995
00:41:22,970 --> 00:41:20,609
what we were doing as a result of that

996
00:41:25,299 --> 00:41:22,980
interaction one of those people now

997
00:41:27,890 --> 00:41:25,309
deceased is a Nobel laureate in physics

998
00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:27,900
named Melvin Schwartz Mel

999
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:29,910
Mel and I have been longtime friends for

1000
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:31,920
years and years years but any before I

1001
00:41:34,849 --> 00:41:33,450
got largely involved in this we did

1002
00:41:37,130 --> 00:41:34,859
physics together in business together

1003
00:41:38,660 --> 00:41:37,140
and so on and when he got the Nobel

1004
00:41:40,579 --> 00:41:38,670
Prize I called him up and said hey now I

1005
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:40,589
want to be on our scientific Oversight

1006
00:41:43,989 --> 00:41:42,210
Committee he said that you know I think

1007
00:41:46,670 --> 00:41:43,999
this whole thing is a whole line of BS

1008
00:41:47,989 --> 00:41:46,680
that's so fine why do you want me and I

1009
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:47,999
said well it's your Nobel Prize that

1010
00:41:53,809 --> 00:41:51,710
looks good on the masthead oh cool and

1011
00:41:56,809 --> 00:41:53,819
besides which mouth I think you're an

1012
00:41:59,180 --> 00:41:56,819
honest scientist he says okay what if

1013
00:42:01,640 --> 00:41:59,190
I'm on your committee for a year and at

1014
00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:01,650
the end of the year I believe what I now

1015
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:04,049
believe it's all bs what would you do

1016
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:06,450
and I said now if you can convince the

1017
00:42:11,359 --> 00:42:08,910
other members of the committee that it's

1018
00:42:13,069 --> 00:42:11,369
all bs I will then quit immediately in

1019
00:42:14,690 --> 00:42:13,079
comfortab work with you at Brookhaven

1020
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:14,700
National Laboratory during physics

1021
00:42:18,380 --> 00:42:16,650
he said done I said no we're not even

1022
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:18,390
close to done somebody what do you mean

1023
00:42:23,509 --> 00:42:20,970
and I said what if after watching this

1024
00:42:24,739 --> 00:42:23,519
for a year that you and the other

1025
00:42:26,749 --> 00:42:24,749
members in committee

1026
00:42:28,730 --> 00:42:26,759
feel that there's something worthy of

1027
00:42:30,890 --> 00:42:28,740
study here then what and that caught him

1028
00:42:32,569 --> 00:42:30,900
off guard and he thought for a moment he

1029
00:42:34,759 --> 00:42:32,579
said I'll tell you what I'll spend some

1030
00:42:36,410 --> 00:42:34,769
fraction of my career helping you to

1031
00:42:38,089 --> 00:42:36,420
figure out how it works and he did that

1032
00:42:40,809 --> 00:42:38,099
up to about a year before it passed away

1033
00:42:44,479 --> 00:42:40,819
that's quite an amazing story and I

1034
00:42:47,539 --> 00:42:44,489
really get a sense for how you as a

1035
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:47,549
physicist we're trying to bring that

1036
00:42:51,410 --> 00:42:49,410
rigor not that there wasn't rigor before

1037
00:42:54,859 --> 00:42:51,420
but you know we're constantly trying to

1038
00:42:56,989 --> 00:42:54,869
bring this mainstream science body of

1039
00:42:59,660 --> 00:42:56,999
knowledge we have to the work I think

1040
00:43:01,549 --> 00:42:59,670
that's really cool thank you so I'd

1041
00:43:03,559 --> 00:43:01,559
really do and that story's phenomenal

1042
00:43:04,849 --> 00:43:03,569
and it has to get out there and so

1043
00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:04,859
people it's important part of the

1044
00:43:11,089 --> 00:43:07,529
history but at the risk of pissing you

1045
00:43:12,349 --> 00:43:11,099
off again let me kind of take a slightly

1046
00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:12,359
different angle on that because I think

1047
00:43:18,620 --> 00:43:16,710
there's another current of interest

1048
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:18,630
that's going on that fascinates a lot of

1049
00:43:23,569 --> 00:43:20,130
people and you're probably in a pretty

1050
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:23,579
good place to fill in the gaps in this

1051
00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:25,680
history as well because one of the

1052
00:43:29,359 --> 00:43:27,569
things that I've learned recently that I

1053
00:43:33,170 --> 00:43:29,369
find fascinating a lot of people find

1054
00:43:36,279 --> 00:43:33,180
fascinating is he'll put off Pat price

1055
00:43:40,039 --> 00:43:36,289
Ingo Swann all these guys who are

1056
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:40,049
central to the Stargate program are deep

1057
00:43:45,130 --> 00:43:41,730
deep deep into Scientology

1058
00:43:47,359 --> 00:43:45,140
heavy hitters in the Scientology

1059
00:43:49,940 --> 00:43:47,369
hierarchy and you know getting all those

1060
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:49,950
advanced degrees and all that stuff what

1061
00:43:55,070 --> 00:43:52,170
do you make of the Scientology

1062
00:43:56,330 --> 00:43:55,080
connection in Stargate well it's an

1063
00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:56,340
interesting question

1064
00:43:59,930 --> 00:43:58,290
I too was involved in the Church of

1065
00:44:05,120 --> 00:43:59,940
Scientology for a brief period of time

1066
00:44:07,550 --> 00:44:05,130
and I'll tell you a story when one gets

1067
00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:07,560
super-high clearances which I had to

1068
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:12,300
have eventually the FBI sent a couple of

1069
00:44:15,590 --> 00:44:13,770
people out to interview you after

1070
00:44:19,340 --> 00:44:15,600
talking to all your associates to make

1071
00:44:22,070 --> 00:44:19,350
sure you're not a Russian spy or or you

1072
00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:22,080
know black malleable and they asked me

1073
00:44:27,650 --> 00:44:24,180
that very same question because what

1074
00:44:31,820 --> 00:44:27,660
happened was Pat price was in my view a

1075
00:44:33,890 --> 00:44:31,830
traitor because what Pat did was first

1076
00:44:36,740 --> 00:44:33,900
of all he left SR I and went to work for

1077
00:44:41,150 --> 00:44:36,750
the agency directly with a guy named Ken

1078
00:44:43,940 --> 00:44:41,160
kress and for many years that they

1079
00:44:46,490 --> 00:44:43,950
worked together Pat price was stealing

1080
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:46,500
secret documents and sending it to the

1081
00:44:51,260 --> 00:44:49,170
Church of Scientology in LA why he did

1082
00:44:54,140 --> 00:44:51,270
that I don't know I never met Pat so I

1083
00:44:57,140 --> 00:44:54,150
don't know what his motivations were in

1084
00:44:59,240 --> 00:44:57,150
19 got off get might have been 79 or no

1085
00:45:00,770 --> 00:44:59,250
must have been later than that the FBI

1086
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:00,780
raided the what's called the C

1087
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:02,970
organization in LA and found all these

1088
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:05,609
secret documents from SR I you know

1089
00:45:10,490 --> 00:45:08,490
documents a we had authored but we're

1090
00:45:14,750 --> 00:45:10,500
sitting there that Pat had stolen from

1091
00:45:16,609 --> 00:45:14,760
CIA and so when I came time for my

1092
00:45:19,220 --> 00:45:16,619
interview with a good cop bad cop two

1093
00:45:20,330 --> 00:45:19,230
FBI guys they asked me well what are

1094
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:20,340
your feelings about the Church of

1095
00:45:24,530 --> 00:45:23,010
Scientology and I'm never a coward or

1096
00:45:26,990 --> 00:45:24,540
you know I'd like to push back as you've

1097
00:45:30,170 --> 00:45:27,000
already noticed I said let me seek input

1098
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:30,180
get this straight are you asking me to

1099
00:45:34,820 --> 00:45:32,160
clarify my First Amendment rights of

1100
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:34,830
freedom of religion and the the world

1101
00:45:38,450 --> 00:45:37,050
council of religions lists the Church of

1102
00:45:41,060 --> 00:45:38,460
Scientology whether you like it or not

1103
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:41,070
as a valid religion you may not like it

1104
00:45:45,710 --> 00:45:43,410
but fine fine that's not a problem and

1105
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:45,720
boy they did a freelance backpedal like

1106
00:45:50,930 --> 00:45:48,720
you wouldn't believe and I said okay now

1107
00:45:53,310 --> 00:45:50,940
let's get this clear I will waive those

1108
00:45:55,860 --> 00:45:53,320
rights what do you want to know about

1109
00:45:57,720 --> 00:45:55,870
the churches had taunted what do you

1110
00:45:59,550 --> 00:45:57,730
think there's a Scientology conspiracy

1111
00:46:01,110 --> 00:45:59,560
if the question you just asked me and I

1112
00:46:02,580 --> 00:46:01,120
said are you kidding most of those

1113
00:46:04,380 --> 00:46:02,590
people that have told you I'm the

1114
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:04,390
project don't even communicate

1115
00:46:08,610 --> 00:46:06,490
themselves with each other we all have

1116
00:46:11,460 --> 00:46:08,620
different viewpoints there was a lot of

1117
00:46:13,950 --> 00:46:11,470
you know like any complicated program

1118
00:46:15,630 --> 00:46:13,960
and that you know there are factions

1119
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:15,640
within it we didn't get along very well

1120
00:46:20,820 --> 00:46:18,160
actually we worked well together as a

1121
00:46:23,070 --> 00:46:20,830
team during science but on matters of

1122
00:46:25,470 --> 00:46:23,080
those kinds of things there was not a

1123
00:46:28,650 --> 00:46:25,480
conspiracy at all in fact if anything

1124
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:28,660
there was an anti conspiracy both has

1125
00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:30,730
the dingo had left the church and I

1126
00:46:35,490 --> 00:46:32,470
certainly didn't last very long because

1127
00:46:37,110 --> 00:46:35,500
it's a crazy organization so hey it was

1128
00:46:39,150 --> 00:46:37,120
part of the human potential movement the

1129
00:46:42,930 --> 00:46:39,160
70s were wrong involved or stupid stuff

1130
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:42,940
that was my stupid stuff great great I

1131
00:46:48,180 --> 00:46:45,280
and you know what I can easily see it

1132
00:46:51,210 --> 00:46:48,190
all fitting into that category there's

1133
00:46:53,580 --> 00:46:51,220
just one other I think area to clear up

1134
00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:53,590
their connection to make and that is to

1135
00:46:56,910 --> 00:46:54,880
go back on that history a little bit a

1136
00:46:59,700 --> 00:46:56,920
lot of people don't know that you know l

1137
00:47:03,000 --> 00:46:59,710
ron Hubbard had a career in US Navy

1138
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:03,010
intelligence and that early on and this

1139
00:47:08,490 --> 00:47:05,530
is kind of well-documented US

1140
00:47:09,930 --> 00:47:08,500
intelligence is like pursuing him saying

1141
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:09,940
you know hey what have you gone and

1142
00:47:14,490 --> 00:47:11,290
figured out because he goes and does a

1143
00:47:17,220 --> 00:47:14,500
bunch of really crazy stuff right I mean

1144
00:47:19,290 --> 00:47:17,230
he's out there in the desert with Jack

1145
00:47:21,420 --> 00:47:19,300
Parsons who's military intelligence and

1146
00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:21,430
they're summoning demons and doing all

1147
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:22,780
this stuff and Jack Parsons is

1148
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:24,910
communicating back to Aleister Crowley

1149
00:47:28,410 --> 00:47:26,650
and saying you know this guy is the real

1150
00:47:29,850 --> 00:47:28,420
deal I mean all this stuff is in the

1151
00:47:32,460 --> 00:47:29,860
history books but what is also in the

1152
00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:32,470
history books is US intelligence and I

1153
00:47:36,060 --> 00:47:34,510
think this is understandable in the way

1154
00:47:37,950 --> 00:47:36,070
that you are kind of saying you know

1155
00:47:40,590 --> 00:47:37,960
there's different layers and

1156
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:40,600
understanding of this they want to know

1157
00:47:43,950 --> 00:47:42,490
what this guy knows whether he knows

1158
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:43,960
anything and then there's this ongoing

1159
00:47:48,330 --> 00:47:45,970
battle where Hubbard is saying hey we

1160
00:47:50,850 --> 00:47:48,340
can't let these guys get their hands on

1161
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:50,860
this because they want to weaponize it

1162
00:47:54,990 --> 00:47:52,480
they want to do it for all these bad

1163
00:47:58,650 --> 00:47:55,000
things and were the good guys do you

1164
00:48:01,110 --> 00:47:58,660
have any any insight or since you just

1165
00:48:06,210 --> 00:48:01,120
added some to what's going on there

1166
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:06,220
between US intelligence and maybe their

1167
00:48:09,430 --> 00:48:07,010
desire

1168
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:09,440
to get that information flowing back the

1169
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:11,650
other way hatin that is does Scientology

1170
00:48:16,540 --> 00:48:14,330
know something that we should know do

1171
00:48:18,430 --> 00:48:16,550
you have any insights in that first of

1172
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:18,440
all I've never heard that you know I'm

1173
00:48:22,990 --> 00:48:21,170
not a Scientology buff I didn't even

1174
00:48:24,610 --> 00:48:23,000
know that he was involved it was in the

1175
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:24,620
Navy or anything like that the only

1176
00:48:28,420 --> 00:48:26,240
thing I knew about 100 is it was

1177
00:48:30,550 --> 00:48:28,430
somewhat interesting science fiction

1178
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:30,560
writer which he literally stole from

1179
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:32,330
traditions all over the world to create

1180
00:48:38,620 --> 00:48:34,970
the Dianetics the modern science of

1181
00:48:41,710 --> 00:48:38,630
mental health but nonetheless look we

1182
00:48:43,660 --> 00:48:41,720
were at cold war with the Soviets during

1183
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:43,670
that period of time the intelligence

1184
00:48:48,010 --> 00:48:45,710
community was willing to try anything

1185
00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:48,020
including asking psychics in crazy

1186
00:48:52,780 --> 00:48:50,480
California whether they could help they

1187
00:48:54,970 --> 00:48:52,790
looked at the Monroe Institute from

1188
00:48:56,590 --> 00:48:54,980
Robert Monroe area they looked at the

1189
00:48:58,240 --> 00:48:56,600
Church of Scientology God knows whatever

1190
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:58,250
things they looked at they were

1191
00:49:03,550 --> 00:49:00,800
desperate in fact one of the reasons we

1192
00:49:05,110 --> 00:49:03,560
were funded and was because the

1193
00:49:08,590 --> 00:49:05,120
intelligence community didn't care

1194
00:49:10,210 --> 00:49:08,600
exactly at all how we got the data they

1195
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:10,220
just wanted to know whether a date it

1196
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:12,050
was any damn good or not and if they you

1197
00:49:16,210 --> 00:49:13,970
had to be naked standing in the corner

1198
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:16,220
on her head spinning out M&Ms if that's

1199
00:49:19,870 --> 00:49:17,690
the way they got the data they couldn't

1200
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:19,880
care less and it drove us crazy in the

1201
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:22,160
early years why because we were

1202
00:49:26,020 --> 00:49:23,510
scientists we want to know how this

1203
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:26,030
stuff worked they didn't give two flying

1204
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:28,490
anything's about how the stuff worked as

1205
00:49:32,050 --> 00:49:29,570
long as it worked

1206
00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:32,060
they wouldn't it wasn't until I landed a

1207
00:49:35,470 --> 00:49:33,710
10 million dollar contract with the army

1208
00:49:38,260 --> 00:49:35,480
medical research and development Command

1209
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:38,270
where I had a charter 85% of that money

1210
00:49:43,330 --> 00:49:40,730
can be spent on basic research how does

1211
00:49:46,090 --> 00:49:43,340
this stuff work so that's an interesting

1212
00:49:47,470 --> 00:49:46,100
kind of interplay there that is it

1213
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:47,480
really has to be kind of fleshed out a

1214
00:49:50,770 --> 00:49:48,770
little bit further so you're the

1215
00:49:52,630 --> 00:49:50,780
scientist and you want to know what's

1216
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:52,640
really going on here how does this stuff

1217
00:49:57,820 --> 00:49:54,800
work what is the underlying mechanism

1218
00:50:00,820 --> 00:49:57,830
sure they're very task-oriented mission

1219
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:00,830
oriented yeah tell me a little bit if

1220
00:50:06,250 --> 00:50:02,890
you will just kind of freewheel about

1221
00:50:09,370 --> 00:50:06,260
personally how you feel we find that

1222
00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:09,380
balance between and justifies the means

1223
00:50:13,570 --> 00:50:12,110
kind of intelligence which because on

1224
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:13,580
one hand they're right that's what they

1225
00:50:18,610 --> 00:50:15,650
have to do that's their job well on the

1226
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:18,620
other hand trying to figure out where we

1227
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:20,480
draw the lines of both

1228
00:50:24,789 --> 00:50:22,640
inquiry in terms of what we want to find

1229
00:50:27,339 --> 00:50:24,799
out but also in terms of what's wrong

1230
00:50:28,779 --> 00:50:27,349
and what's right what we should allow

1231
00:50:31,029 --> 00:50:28,789
and shouldn't allow because those are

1232
00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:31,039
questions that are very very relevant

1233
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:34,910
today and in a way you guys were looking

1234
00:50:39,519 --> 00:50:36,319
at them in a way that no one even

1235
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:39,529
imagined the years ago I mean you're

1236
00:50:42,730 --> 00:50:41,450
talking like you said you're being nice

1237
00:50:44,259 --> 00:50:42,740
when you say sit in the corner and spit

1238
00:50:46,599 --> 00:50:44,269
out my M&Ms but they're also like

1239
00:50:48,130 --> 00:50:46,609
talking to Satan this and you know said

1240
00:50:51,430 --> 00:50:48,140
that we're just they just said hey

1241
00:50:53,950 --> 00:50:51,440
whatever you know that's a project m'kay

1242
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:53,960
often I think it is but I mean that was

1243
00:50:58,440 --> 00:50:55,970
their task just exactly what you

1244
00:51:02,620 --> 00:50:58,450
characterized it figure out what works

1245
00:51:06,579 --> 00:51:02,630
well first off what's really interesting

1246
00:51:09,069 --> 00:51:06,589
to me we kept saying the research that

1247
00:51:11,170 --> 00:51:09,079
we did under my wants for sure was

1248
00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:11,180
divided in the two types of research one

1249
00:51:16,450 --> 00:51:13,760
was called application-oriented in other

1250
00:51:19,180 --> 00:51:16,460
words what can we do to improve the

1251
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:19,190
product outcome you know remote viewing

1252
00:51:24,130 --> 00:51:22,609
better and you know whether we should do

1253
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:24,140
it in the morning or do it at their

1254
00:51:28,690 --> 00:51:26,210
local scenario time or whatever the

1255
00:51:30,999 --> 00:51:28,700
environmental circumstances are sets

1256
00:51:34,329 --> 00:51:31,009
that we get a better product that all

1257
00:51:36,460 --> 00:51:34,339
those kinds of things we called and and

1258
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:36,470
our contractors of people who provided

1259
00:51:42,009 --> 00:51:38,720
us money we called application-oriented

1260
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:42,019
research the other side of that is basic

1261
00:51:47,170 --> 00:51:44,450
research in other words how does it work

1262
00:51:50,259 --> 00:51:47,180
because the argument is if we could get

1263
00:51:52,359 --> 00:51:50,269
some handle how this works we could

1264
00:51:54,579 --> 00:51:52,369
improve the product because we would

1265
00:51:56,980 --> 00:51:54,589
know what not to do and more importantly

1266
00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:56,990
what to do to get a better sense of what

1267
00:52:00,700 --> 00:51:58,880
was happening and that was something new

1268
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:00,710
on the project bending beginning in late

1269
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:04,130
early 1976 I have a two million dollar

1270
00:52:08,859 --> 00:52:05,690
contract from the NAD command to

1271
00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:08,869
actually start that bat-rope the other

1272
00:52:12,220 --> 00:52:10,910
issue that really comes to bear here

1273
00:52:13,809 --> 00:52:12,230
it's not just remote viewing

1274
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:13,819
intelligence gathering but its

1275
00:52:19,210 --> 00:52:16,250
intelligence gathering in general that

1276
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:19,220
is the intelligence value of something

1277
00:52:25,509 --> 00:52:22,880
is only loosely connected to the quality

1278
00:52:28,569 --> 00:52:25,519
of the data let me give it sort of

1279
00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:28,579
hypothetical examples we have satellites

1280
00:52:33,850 --> 00:52:30,710
that can photograph exclusively tiny

1281
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:33,860
things from space right and

1282
00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:36,530
suppose you get satellite imagery of a

1283
00:52:40,930 --> 00:52:38,960
new Russian tank and we can practically

1284
00:52:43,180 --> 00:52:40,940
count the rivets on the tank and we know

1285
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:43,190
how its constructed in all those details

1286
00:52:48,940 --> 00:52:45,890
by this extremely high quality data from

1287
00:52:52,210 --> 00:52:48,950
satellite pictures however that may have

1288
00:52:53,350 --> 00:52:52,220
zero intelligence value why because the

1289
00:52:55,450 --> 00:52:53,360
people who are gathering that

1290
00:52:58,300 --> 00:52:55,460
information from satellite imagery are

1291
00:53:00,700 --> 00:52:58,310
unaware that the Special Forces stole

1292
00:53:02,170 --> 00:53:00,710
one of those tanks when they dismantled

1293
00:53:03,490 --> 00:53:02,180
completely in the building there's

1294
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:03,500
nothing new that could be learned from

1295
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:07,130
it the inverse of that is also true that

1296
00:53:11,380 --> 00:53:09,050
you know some photo interpreter looking

1297
00:53:13,650 --> 00:53:11,390
satellite images will sue the clouds and

1298
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:13,660
you really the data is really poor and

1299
00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:16,610
they said an intelligence analyst sort

1300
00:53:21,490 --> 00:53:19,520
photo a photographic analyst my safe hmm

1301
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:21,500
you know I'm not sure what that blob is

1302
00:53:25,450 --> 00:53:23,210
over the left of the right underneath

1303
00:53:27,250 --> 00:53:25,460
that cloud but that gives me an idea

1304
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:27,260
let me check another source and cracks

1305
00:53:33,970 --> 00:53:29,330
open the case and there's a case where

1306
00:53:36,850 --> 00:53:33,980
terrible data is in fact high quality or

1307
00:53:40,060 --> 00:53:36,860
high value intelligence nobody has been

1308
00:53:42,099 --> 00:53:40,070
able to solve that question and it's a

1309
00:53:44,530 --> 00:53:42,109
tough one and remote viewing is not

1310
00:53:46,990 --> 00:53:44,540
immune to that either so we've had some

1311
00:53:48,849 --> 00:53:47,000
marvelous of remote viewing examples

1312
00:53:49,890 --> 00:53:48,859
that have zero and ptosis back and

1313
00:53:53,620 --> 00:53:49,900
vice-versa

1314
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:53,630
that's very interesting and important

1315
00:53:57,550 --> 00:53:55,850
you know I was trying to get you just

1316
00:53:59,470 --> 00:53:57,560
your your kind of personal opinion and

1317
00:54:01,599 --> 00:53:59,480
I'm gonna ask it and maybe in a better

1318
00:54:03,310 --> 00:54:01,609
way that you can hear because you're in

1319
00:54:06,609 --> 00:54:03,320
a unique spot here you're sitting there

1320
00:54:08,349 --> 00:54:06,619
as a scientist and you're helping the

1321
00:54:09,460 --> 00:54:08,359
United States intelligence organization

1322
00:54:11,980 --> 00:54:09,470
I keep saying Unites States intelligence

1323
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:11,990
cuz you had like an alphabet soup of

1324
00:54:17,620 --> 00:54:14,450
different clients right yet army

1325
00:54:20,170 --> 00:54:17,630
intelligence you had CIA right so I'm

1326
00:54:22,410 --> 00:54:20,180
just saying US intelligence jump in here

1327
00:54:25,570 --> 00:54:22,420
just briefly you know we get branded

1328
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:25,580
into a fort and I were in Moscow a year

1329
00:54:35,590 --> 00:54:27,530
ago December we were built on Russian

1330
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:35,600
television a CIA spy Russia no you're

1331
00:54:39,430 --> 00:54:37,490
gonna say that say we're army spies may

1332
00:54:42,910 --> 00:54:39,440
be spies FBI spies

1333
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:42,920
yeah revenge it turns out that out of

1334
00:54:47,470 --> 00:54:46,010
the not only 20 million dollars CIA gave

1335
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:47,480
us directly

1336
00:54:51,340 --> 00:54:49,520
one hundred and ninety five thousand

1337
00:54:54,099 --> 00:54:51,350
dollars only they were one of the least

1338
00:54:56,050 --> 00:54:54,109
contributors of money to our project the

1339
00:54:58,270 --> 00:54:56,060
vast majority of money came from the

1340
00:54:59,859 --> 00:54:58,280
Defense Intelligence Agency in the Army

1341
00:55:01,960 --> 00:54:59,869
Medical Research and Development Command

1342
00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:01,970
they accounted for most of the funding

1343
00:55:05,770 --> 00:55:04,160
now you're asking me whether I think

1344
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:05,780
that's important to do

1345
00:55:08,740 --> 00:55:07,520
and where do you draw the line is what

1346
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:08,750
I'm really asking because that's

1347
00:55:13,570 --> 00:55:11,210
relevant to right now today you know I

1348
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:13,580
mean we've been through just like you

1349
00:55:17,650 --> 00:55:16,010
said of the the satellite or the drones

1350
00:55:19,930 --> 00:55:17,660
you put it anywhere you know it's the

1351
00:55:22,090 --> 00:55:19,940
could we question and how do we question

1352
00:55:26,170 --> 00:55:22,100
which is the science part of it and then

1353
00:55:28,270 --> 00:55:26,180
there's the should we question that's a

1354
00:55:32,530 --> 00:55:28,280
really interesting point Joe mcmoneagle

1355
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:32,540
and I were both ignited in the order of

1356
00:55:36,970 --> 00:55:35,090
st. Stanislaus which you know solar

1357
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:36,980
sword on the shoulder and all that stuff

1358
00:55:42,340 --> 00:55:39,770
in the washing Cathedral because the

1359
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:42,350
order of st. Stanislaus is a chivalrous

1360
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:45,290
order it was the government in exile

1361
00:55:48,970 --> 00:55:47,450
from Paul in Poland during World War two

1362
00:55:51,099 --> 00:55:48,980
since then they're basically a

1363
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:51,109
philanthropic organization and the

1364
00:55:56,730 --> 00:55:53,450
reason we were honored by that well Joe

1365
00:56:00,070 --> 00:55:56,740
and I was because we contributed albeit

1366
00:56:03,070 --> 00:56:00,080
frankly very slightly to the liberation

1367
00:56:06,070 --> 00:56:03,080
of Eastern Europe and that was a worthy

1368
00:56:07,570 --> 00:56:06,080
goal now does that mean I'm not going to

1369
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:07,580
I'm not going to defend the Intelligence

1370
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:09,200
Committee for everything they've done

1371
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:10,850
some really horrific stuff particularly

1372
00:56:15,099 --> 00:56:12,530
the CIA we all know about the horrific

1373
00:56:18,210 --> 00:56:15,109
stuff they've done but for the most part

1374
00:56:23,950 --> 00:56:18,220
I was proud to serve in that capacity

1375
00:56:26,349 --> 00:56:23,960
and to look you can't fight a war unless

1376
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:26,359
you have secrets and what we did was to

1377
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:30,530
contribute slightly not allowing the the

1378
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:33,290
opposition to have secrets since that

1379
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:35,570
time by the way I've become close

1380
00:56:41,980 --> 00:56:38,930
friends with our former KGB al enemies

1381
00:56:43,750 --> 00:56:41,990
and we party hardly whenever I go to

1382
00:56:46,990 --> 00:56:43,760
Moscow which was many many many times

1383
00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:47,000
about 22 times at this stage right no I

1384
00:56:52,090 --> 00:56:49,510
think that's a great perspective I mean

1385
00:56:54,130 --> 00:56:52,100
we're in the secret business we're in

1386
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:54,140
the conspiracy business whether we want

1387
00:57:00,940 --> 00:56:56,050
to or not it's part of being a

1388
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:00,950
superpower right kind of a related

1389
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:03,200
and I think and then we can kind of wrap

1390
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:05,570
this up I appreciate very very much your

1391
00:57:09,070 --> 00:57:07,370
your open must and your willing to talk

1392
00:57:11,580 --> 00:57:09,080
about you know all these different

1393
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:11,590
things and it's kind of related and it's

1394
00:57:18,010 --> 00:57:14,930
you know so Stargate is Stargate it's

1395
00:57:20,650 --> 00:57:18,020
remote viewing and most people have an

1396
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:20,660
opinion about how real it is I think you

1397
00:57:25,780 --> 00:57:23,450
come down very clearly that it's real as

1398
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:25,790
a scientist it's a hard-nosed scientist

1399
00:57:29,620 --> 00:57:27,530
there's no getting around the data

1400
00:57:31,570 --> 00:57:29,630
you're pretty clear about that but it

1401
00:57:36,730 --> 00:57:31,580
seemed to also be part of a larger

1402
00:57:39,610 --> 00:57:36,740
program interested in mind control mind

1403
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:39,620
aspects of course many people have heard

1404
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:42,650
about MKULTRA and that all became public

1405
00:57:45,610 --> 00:57:44,570
because they did it up in Canada and

1406
00:57:47,230 --> 00:57:45,620
they have different kind of freedom of

1407
00:57:48,310 --> 00:57:47,240
information laws and they suit him and

1408
00:57:51,220 --> 00:57:48,320
they got a lot of stuff out in the

1409
00:57:54,930 --> 00:57:51,230
public domain but you mentioned the Fort

1410
00:57:58,230 --> 00:57:54,940
Meade group you know how would you put

1411
00:58:02,320 --> 00:57:58,240
Stargate as part of the larger interest

1412
00:58:05,590 --> 00:58:02,330
that US intelligence had in the mind

1413
00:58:07,690 --> 00:58:05,600
mind control how our enemies might be

1414
00:58:10,810 --> 00:58:07,700
trying to control our mind collectively

1415
00:58:16,060 --> 00:58:10,820
how we might want to do that as well I

1416
00:58:18,670 --> 00:58:16,070
mean any thoughts on that book are

1417
00:58:20,890 --> 00:58:18,680
called ESP Wars east to the west and

1418
00:58:24,540 --> 00:58:20,900
others a Russian version of it and the

1419
00:58:28,030 --> 00:58:24,550
forward in that book is Nicholas Sean a

1420
00:58:30,730 --> 00:58:28,040
the second command in KGB before the KGB

1421
00:58:33,010 --> 00:58:30,740
went away and changed its name and I've

1422
00:58:36,490 --> 00:58:33,020
had many many interactions with Sean and

1423
00:58:39,310 --> 00:58:36,500
one of them was they had funded he

1424
00:58:41,530 --> 00:58:39,320
personally in that role had funded 40

1425
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:41,540
research institutes across the former

1426
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:43,730
Soviet Union to develop what is called

1427
00:58:49,060 --> 00:58:46,250
psychotronic weaponry that is

1428
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:49,070
mind-control at a distance all right and

1429
00:58:53,500 --> 00:58:50,810
he said you know we spent all this money

1430
00:58:55,330 --> 00:58:53,510
we could not make it work and we had a

1431
00:58:57,730 --> 00:58:55,340
big laugh I said God a few guys have

1432
00:58:58,690 --> 00:58:57,740
been able to make that work we you would

1433
00:59:02,320 --> 00:58:58,700
have won the Cold War

1434
00:59:05,650 --> 00:59:02,330
we flunked down some vodka it's a slip a

1435
00:59:07,870 --> 00:59:05,660
particular observation this the see I

1436
00:59:09,990 --> 00:59:07,880
ain't got into a lot of trouble and one

1437
00:59:12,490 --> 00:59:10,000
of the reasons they abandoned us is

1438
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:12,500
inverted Lee our program was put on a

1439
00:59:15,950 --> 00:59:14,130
mind-control sly

1440
00:59:18,469 --> 00:59:15,960
in some briefing somewhere with the the

1441
00:59:20,989 --> 00:59:18,479
director of CIA saw and said kill all

1442
00:59:23,390 --> 00:59:20,999
those programs because the US government

1443
00:59:25,759 --> 00:59:23,400
by Congress especially after the Nixon

1444
00:59:27,979 --> 00:59:25,769
era got into a tremendous amount of

1445
00:59:30,319 --> 00:59:27,989
difficulty with so-called mind-control

1446
00:59:33,380 --> 00:59:30,329
MKULTRA and other things prior to all

1447
00:59:37,279 --> 00:59:33,390
that finally it just seems to me that if

1448
00:59:41,329 --> 00:59:37,289
you have I don't think he can do mind

1449
00:59:42,009 --> 00:59:41,339
control in that way and so I think we're

1450
00:59:44,539 --> 00:59:42,019
safe

1451
00:59:47,359 --> 00:59:44,549
you know II D you mentioned briefly

1452
00:59:48,829 --> 00:59:47,369
during our talk there these books that

1453
00:59:50,900 --> 00:59:48,839
you're working on that sound like

1454
00:59:53,870 --> 00:59:50,910
they're going to be an important

1455
00:59:55,519 --> 00:59:53,880
contribution and helping people sort

1456
00:59:57,469 --> 00:59:55,529
through some of this history and all

1457
01:00:00,140 --> 00:59:57,479
those documents that are out there but

1458
01:00:01,700 --> 01:00:00,150
it really takes an expert hand to kind

1459
01:00:03,410 --> 01:00:01,710
of weave through those and weave a story

1460
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:03,420
not that your story is the only story

1461
01:00:06,710 --> 01:00:05,130
but your story is definitely a story

1462
01:00:08,870 --> 01:00:06,720
that needs to be told

1463
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:08,880
tell folks more about those books when

1464
01:00:11,509 --> 01:00:10,049
they're coming out you said you might

1465
01:00:14,839 --> 01:00:11,519
want to talk about one of the titles

1466
01:00:17,359 --> 01:00:14,849
okay if you go to Amazon we'll just type

1467
01:00:20,809 --> 01:00:17,369
in my name Edward C may you'll see

1468
01:00:22,969 --> 01:00:20,819
covers of these books what happened is

1469
01:00:24,769 --> 01:00:22,979
it's not my story it's a story of

1470
01:00:27,170 --> 01:00:24,779
Stargate which was only the last

1471
01:00:28,690 --> 01:00:27,180
nickname of a bunch of them can I tell a

1472
01:00:31,670 --> 01:00:28,700
funny story about one of the nicknames

1473
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:31,680
yeah I always do I was walking out of

1474
01:00:35,749 --> 01:00:33,690
the Pentagon with an army colonel who

1475
01:00:37,819 --> 01:00:35,759
said hey we've just changed the nickname

1476
01:00:39,950 --> 01:00:37,829
of the project and it's now called

1477
01:00:41,539 --> 01:00:39,960
quantum leap aren't you excited given

1478
01:00:44,989 --> 01:00:41,549
that you're a physicist in quantum beam

1479
01:00:47,180 --> 01:00:44,999
and I said oh gosh colonel I know I'm

1480
01:00:50,150 --> 01:00:47,190
really not well why not and I said a

1481
01:00:52,579 --> 01:00:50,160
quantum leap forward progress is the

1482
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:52,589
smallest possible progress above none

1483
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:54,930
and I said can we find a better name

1484
01:01:03,380 --> 01:01:01,200
which is true so what the the the

1485
01:01:05,029 --> 01:01:03,390
interesting thing to me first of all in

1486
01:01:07,910 --> 01:01:05,039
going through all the stuff and I asked

1487
01:01:10,190 --> 01:01:07,920
your question momentarily we had

1488
01:01:12,559 --> 01:01:10,200
virtually chump change

1489
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:12,569
support for Stargate I mean he was

1490
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:14,130
twenty million dollars spread out over

1491
01:01:17,749 --> 01:01:16,410
20 years with a big variance sometimes

1492
01:01:19,579 --> 01:01:17,759
there was no money at all for a couple

1493
01:01:21,170 --> 01:01:19,589
of years in our management is pacing

1494
01:01:23,589 --> 01:01:21,180
down the hall and measuring the drakes

1495
01:01:26,700 --> 01:01:23,599
cuz they're gonna throw us out to

1496
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:26,710
cash-rich when I had ten year

1497
01:01:31,589 --> 01:01:28,650
a five-year ten million dollar program

1498
01:01:33,839 --> 01:01:31,599
the but even that sounds like a lot of

1499
01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:33,849
money for research parapsychology but my

1500
01:01:40,020 --> 01:01:35,920
goodness it's chump change for the

1501
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:40,030
intelligence community and yet our

1502
01:01:45,390 --> 01:01:42,730
program have visibility far exceeding

1503
01:01:47,579 --> 01:01:45,400
what the money suggests we know exactly

1504
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:47,589
the the President of the United States

1505
01:01:51,599 --> 01:01:49,599
was briefed by our project and we know

1506
01:01:53,970 --> 01:01:51,609
what he was briefed upon two vice

1507
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:53,980
presidents were briefed on our program

1508
01:01:59,130 --> 01:01:55,810
exactly what we know what they were

1509
01:02:02,070 --> 01:01:59,140
briefed upon a head of CIA head of do a

1510
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:02,080
head of all the major elements within

1511
01:02:06,390 --> 01:02:03,760
the executive branch of the government

1512
01:02:08,790 --> 01:02:06,400
were briefed in fact had even passed on

1513
01:02:11,550 --> 01:02:08,800
her program one of the things in what in

1514
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:11,560
in the introduction of all of the four

1515
01:02:17,250 --> 01:02:15,250
volumes we have a letter requesting the

1516
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:17,260
DCI the Director of Central Intelligence

1517
01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:19,930
which in those days was the top dog in

1518
01:02:24,540 --> 01:02:22,240
all the intelligence community signed

1519
01:02:26,940 --> 01:02:24,550
off on our program going forward with

1520
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:26,950
his signature and we have that on the on

1521
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:30,010
the in these books so what have we done

1522
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:33,250
what we've taken the entire collection

1523
01:02:39,030 --> 01:02:35,530
of documents released by CIA and others

1524
01:02:41,490 --> 01:02:39,040
the CIA didn't have and without in

1525
01:02:44,490 --> 01:02:41,500
changing the content because what our

1526
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:44,500
goal here is to provide some material

1527
01:02:48,750 --> 01:02:46,570
that 50 years from now where scholars

1528
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:48,760
can decide what do these guys do for

1529
01:02:53,010 --> 01:02:50,170
that money and they will be able to

1530
01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:53,020
answer that question and so there are

1531
01:02:56,849 --> 01:02:54,609
three volumes which involved the

1532
01:02:58,530 --> 01:02:56,859
research all the remote viewing and

1533
01:03:03,270 --> 01:02:58,540
everything is sociopath remote viewing

1534
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:03,280
from 1972 to 1984 that includes how we

1535
01:03:07,859 --> 01:03:05,530
found people how we knew what we had but

1536
01:03:09,930 --> 01:03:07,869
the protocols were what the correlations

1537
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:09,940
were of physiology and physics and

1538
01:03:12,780 --> 01:03:11,290
what-have-you everything you could

1539
01:03:13,859 --> 01:03:12,790
possibly think that would be of interest

1540
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:13,869
of parentage

1541
01:03:21,089 --> 01:03:17,050
remote viewing is in that volume from 72

1542
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:21,099
to 80 for the second volume is the same

1543
01:03:27,180 --> 01:03:24,130
stuff except this time from 85 onward to

1544
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:27,190
95 in the program close the third volume

1545
01:03:32,670 --> 01:03:29,290
and these will all be about 400 page

1546
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:32,680
eight and a half by 11 books with tons

1547
01:03:38,410 --> 01:03:36,010
of equations and tons of figures and so

1548
01:03:40,359 --> 01:03:38,420
on I think it'll be a given an award by

1549
01:03:44,140 --> 01:03:40,369
the American with Sameach associationism

1550
01:03:47,220 --> 01:03:44,150
is no one's hardly ever gonna buy those

1551
01:03:49,539 --> 01:03:47,230
books the third volume is on

1552
01:03:51,609 --> 01:03:49,549
psychokinesis it's not well known how

1553
01:03:55,089 --> 01:03:51,619
much work we did in psychokinesis why

1554
01:03:58,000 --> 01:03:55,099
the army wanted to be able to distort

1555
01:04:00,069 --> 01:03:58,010
the flight paths of incoming missiles if

1556
01:04:02,410 --> 01:04:00,079
the Soviets attacked us so they had a

1557
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:02,420
vested interest and see whether we can

1558
01:04:07,180 --> 01:04:04,880
make psychokinesis work and finally

1559
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:07,190
volume for the last of the series is

1560
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:08,690
going to be the most interesting one I

1561
01:04:14,349 --> 01:04:10,970
think and that is these are documents

1562
01:04:17,109 --> 01:04:14,359
memos letters with some very high

1563
01:04:20,980 --> 01:04:17,119
powerful people commenting about our

1564
01:04:22,690 --> 01:04:20,990
program that our government oriented our

1565
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:22,700
government originated all the other

1566
01:04:28,270 --> 01:04:25,250
three volumes our contractor originated

1567
01:04:30,190 --> 01:04:28,280
and these will be out sometime by

1568
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:30,200
probably the fall of this coming year

1569
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:31,490
I've been working on this with a

1570
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:36,170
colleague in India for four years one

1571
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:41,650
thing of note last November November in

1572
01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:46,010
1999 excuse me in November of 2015 I was

1573
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:49,520
the cover story of Time magazine and at

1574
01:04:55,420 --> 01:04:52,730
that time excuse me a Newsweek hmm and

1575
01:05:00,910 --> 01:04:55,430
you know the psychic spying thing yeah

1576
01:05:05,260 --> 01:05:00,920
and in that was a former Secretary of

1577
01:05:08,859 --> 01:05:05,270
Defense William Cohen was outed for his

1578
01:05:11,230 --> 01:05:08,869
interest in this particular topic as

1579
01:05:14,170 --> 01:05:11,240
Secretary of Defense and I've known

1580
01:05:19,539 --> 01:05:14,180
Cohen ever since he was instrumental in

1581
01:05:22,870 --> 01:05:19,549
helping us get funding from 1986 on 8900

1582
01:05:25,750 --> 01:05:22,880
actually so angela ford one of the

1583
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:25,760
remote viewers from Fort Meade and I

1584
01:05:29,470 --> 01:05:28,130
have known Cohen for some time so we

1585
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:29,480
went to visit him he's long since

1586
01:05:34,049 --> 01:05:31,730
retired from governmentís has what's

1587
01:05:37,539 --> 01:05:34,059
called the Cohen group on 8th Street in

1588
01:05:39,579 --> 01:05:37,549
Washington and we're going to check

1589
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:39,589
Check Into the receptionist downstairs

1590
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:41,930
and I say answer for Dannette mayor here

1591
01:05:48,370 --> 01:05:45,530
to meet with secretary Cohen excuse me

1592
01:05:50,860 --> 01:05:48,380
and the receptionist said Oh bill first

1593
01:05:53,170 --> 01:05:50,870
name is expecting you so

1594
01:05:54,610 --> 01:05:53,180
you got a clue that the lowest person on

1595
01:05:58,060 --> 01:05:54,620
the food chain their calls him by his

1596
01:06:00,220 --> 01:05:58,070
first name so we go upstairs and I

1597
01:06:01,990 --> 01:06:00,230
haven't met protected bill Cohen like

1598
01:06:04,060 --> 01:06:02,000
crazy for over the years I met with in

1599
01:06:06,010 --> 01:06:04,070
his office probably 20 times when he was

1600
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:06,020
a senator and you were protecting him

1601
01:06:10,030 --> 01:06:07,490
because why were you protecting him

1602
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:10,040
because why would I out somebody's

1603
01:06:14,350 --> 01:06:12,170
interest which was not generally known

1604
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:14,360
and the reason I would not want to do

1605
01:06:21,700 --> 01:06:17,930
that in fact even today this is an

1606
01:06:24,370 --> 01:06:21,710
interesting side story though Alex I'm

1607
01:06:26,020 --> 01:06:24,380
allowed to use the name of Jack Verona

1608
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:26,030
Jack Verona if I had to single out one

1609
01:06:32,950 --> 01:06:28,490
person that was responsible for star gay

1610
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:32,960
as Jack Verona PhD physicist former

1611
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:34,730
director of deputy director for science

1612
01:06:39,430 --> 01:06:36,890
and technology of dia worked for CIA

1613
01:06:41,470 --> 01:06:39,440
before that he's allowed me to use his

1614
01:06:44,860 --> 01:06:41,480
name any way I want but he will not

1615
01:06:46,690 --> 01:06:44,870
write anything for our program and there

1616
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:46,700
are a list of very high-level people

1617
01:06:50,740 --> 01:06:49,130
that won't even allow me to use their

1618
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:50,750
names even though they're all retired

1619
01:06:56,500 --> 01:06:52,610
and getting old and what have you going

1620
01:06:58,750 --> 01:06:56,510
to Dyson the reason for that is if you

1621
01:07:00,460 --> 01:06:58,760
look at poor Nancy Reagan when it was a

1622
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:00,470
mitad that she was interested in

1623
01:07:09,460 --> 01:07:04,490
astrology the media slaughtered her just

1624
01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:09,470
clobbered her for that and so I didn't

1625
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:12,710
want to out bill Cohen at all unless he

1626
01:07:16,570 --> 01:07:14,570
gave me permission so you're working

1627
01:07:18,820 --> 01:07:16,580
with these elected officials and they

1628
01:07:20,620 --> 01:07:18,830
have that kind of pressure the puck is

1629
01:07:22,900 --> 01:07:20,630
scrutinizing everything they did are you

1630
01:07:24,850 --> 01:07:22,910
involved in some kind of satanic kind of

1631
01:07:27,100 --> 01:07:24,860
called kind of thing over there are you

1632
01:07:29,740 --> 01:07:27,110
involved in a boondoggle kind of crazy

1633
01:07:32,350 --> 01:07:29,750
thing so there's a lot of stuff going on

1634
01:07:34,210 --> 01:07:32,360
for example I had a rather substantial

1635
01:07:37,630 --> 01:07:34,220
contract with the United States Air

1636
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:37,640
Force all right and an official in the

1637
01:07:42,250 --> 01:07:39,650
in the hierarchy of the United States

1638
01:07:46,630 --> 01:07:42,260
Air Force I won't name him said and this

1639
01:07:47,650 --> 01:07:46,640
is an exact quote I believe in ESP it is

1640
01:07:50,020 --> 01:07:47,660
the work of the devil

1641
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:50,030
kill that program and they came and took

1642
01:07:57,010 --> 01:07:54,650
our money back right for the more Dale

1643
01:07:58,960 --> 01:07:57,020
Graf who was then working as a civilian

1644
01:08:00,910 --> 01:07:58,970
for wright-patterson Air Force Base one

1645
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:00,920
of our contract monitors he had been

1646
01:08:04,510 --> 01:08:04,010
given a reward for spent for excellence

1647
01:08:08,790 --> 01:08:04,520
in

1648
01:08:11,050 --> 01:08:08,800
the air force and gave him a sabbatical

1649
01:08:12,700 --> 01:08:11,060
when that statement was made by the

1650
01:08:15,340 --> 01:08:12,710
senior official within the air force

1651
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:15,350
they took his sabbatical back he was so

1652
01:08:20,079 --> 01:08:16,970
pissed off he quit the Air Force as a

1653
01:08:21,910 --> 01:08:20,089
civilian mentor for dia so that's kind

1654
01:08:24,150 --> 01:08:21,920
of metal year now I have to give credit

1655
01:08:27,039 --> 01:08:24,160
to my wife Diane Jeannette on this issue

1656
01:08:29,230 --> 01:08:27,049
I said you know in Russia it's just the

1657
01:08:31,059 --> 01:08:29,240
opposite the Russians love their senior

1658
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:31,069
people to be associated with this

1659
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:34,370
program and their religious to their you

1660
01:08:39,670 --> 01:08:37,010
know the Eastern Orthodox Church the

1661
01:08:42,430 --> 01:08:39,680
Russian Orthodox Church and turns out

1662
01:08:45,190 --> 01:08:42,440
what she thought was a way to blame the

1663
01:08:48,910 --> 01:08:45,200
Protestant Reformation in the following

1664
01:08:51,940 --> 01:08:48,920
sense the Reformation basically was the

1665
01:08:53,890 --> 01:08:51,950
origin origin of the fact that we in the

1666
01:08:56,079 --> 01:08:53,900
West and Western religions have taken

1667
01:08:58,420 --> 01:08:56,089
mysticism out of the practice of

1668
01:09:00,010 --> 01:08:58,430
religion for the most part even the

1669
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:00,020
Catholics don't do it very much anymore

1670
01:09:05,349 --> 01:09:02,930
the Anglican still have some mysticism

1671
01:09:06,970 --> 01:09:05,359
but you go to Russia and you go through

1672
01:09:09,490 --> 01:09:06,980
though any of those churches there are

1673
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:09,500
90% mysticism so they are comfortable

1674
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:11,839
with and the mysticism have its origin

1675
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:15,650
in in shamanism in Central Asia and that

1676
01:09:20,620 --> 01:09:18,770
is kind of a hand waving explanation why

1677
01:09:22,900 --> 01:09:20,630
it's safe force if senior Soviet

1678
01:09:24,130 --> 01:09:22,910
officials former Soviet officials to

1679
01:09:26,410 --> 01:09:24,140
admit that they were involved in this

1680
01:09:28,180 --> 01:09:26,420
program and even wanted to be part of it

1681
01:09:29,470 --> 01:09:28,190
even though they weren't whereas just

1682
01:09:31,059 --> 01:09:29,480
the opposite is true here in this

1683
01:09:33,370 --> 01:09:31,069
country so that's why we had to protect

1684
01:09:37,780 --> 01:09:33,380
Cohen so when Angela and I met him in

1685
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:37,790
his office he agreed to write a lengthy

1686
01:09:44,349 --> 01:09:39,890
letter in support of our work and that

1687
01:09:47,260 --> 01:09:44,359
is montañés you know for these volumes

1688
01:09:48,460 --> 01:09:47,270
he is supportive our work excellent and

1689
01:09:51,789 --> 01:09:48,470
I love that little bit about the

1690
01:09:53,410 --> 01:09:51,799
mysticism edie in terms of the website I

1691
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:53,420
found you through your website is that

1692
01:09:57,550 --> 01:09:55,280
the best way best place for people to

1693
01:09:59,770 --> 01:09:57,560
find out information that you keep up

1694
01:10:02,200 --> 01:09:59,780
with what you're doing yeah eventually I

1695
01:10:04,090 --> 01:10:02,210
just took down a very old website that

1696
01:10:05,980 --> 01:10:04,100
had been around for 20 years and I'm

1697
01:10:09,100 --> 01:10:05,990
just doing it with a new technology for

1698
01:10:11,140 --> 01:10:09,110
me WordPress so it's alive but not great

1699
01:10:13,990 --> 01:10:11,150
at the moment so bear with me they'll be

1700
01:10:16,420 --> 01:10:14,000
videos and protocols and all kinds of

1701
01:10:17,050 --> 01:10:16,430
good stuff there it's it's basically

1702
01:10:19,180 --> 01:10:17,060
ever

1703
01:10:28,890 --> 01:10:19,190
instruction and so people can watch how

1704
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:33,730
www-where Romeo L afar dot o-r-g

1705
01:10:38,050 --> 01:10:36,410
LF rrg great well we'll certainly have a

1706
01:10:40,270 --> 01:10:38,060
link to it in the show and it's been

1707
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:40,280
absolutely fantastic having it on the

1708
01:10:44,500 --> 01:10:42,170
show you are so much a part of this

1709
01:10:47,590 --> 01:10:44,510
really important history and I think

1710
01:10:49,110 --> 01:10:47,600
your ideas on this are extremely

1711
01:10:52,330 --> 01:10:49,120
important we don't have to agree to

1712
01:10:54,670 --> 01:10:52,340
agree that we need to get everything

1713
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:54,680
you're thinking out there into the

1714
01:10:59,470 --> 01:10:56,810
record onto the table and consider it

1715
01:11:02,620 --> 01:10:59,480
well I apologize for getting frustrating

1716
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:02,630
here because you're down on something of

1717
01:11:06,970 --> 01:11:04,610
which I know very little or even care

1718
01:11:08,710 --> 01:11:06,980
very little about I know it's important

1719
01:11:10,300 --> 01:11:08,720
to you that doesn't mean you're wrong

1720
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:10,310
and I'm right it's just a difference of

1721
01:11:15,460 --> 01:11:12,770
view that's all no apology needed it's

1722
01:11:18,070 --> 01:11:15,470
just spent you know I got 50 or 60 shows

1723
01:11:20,410 --> 01:11:18,080
on it so I've got a lot of a lot of

1724
01:11:23,650 --> 01:11:20,420
stuff there to kind of get out so it's

1725
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:23,660
all good as they say and again thank you

1726
01:11:27,190 --> 01:11:25,520
so much for being on the show you're

1727
01:11:29,230 --> 01:11:27,200
most welcome Alex thanks for having me I

1728
01:11:31,630 --> 01:11:29,240
appreciate it well thanks again to dr.

1729
01:11:33,940 --> 01:11:31,640
EDA for joining me today on skeptical

1730
01:11:36,310 --> 01:11:33,950
I'm glad we're able to end the interview

1731
01:11:38,470 --> 01:11:36,320
with such pleasantries and on what

1732
01:11:41,770 --> 01:11:38,480
seemed like good terms I have to say

1733
01:11:44,050 --> 01:11:41,780
that's not how it really ended the next

1734
01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:44,060
day ed sent me an email saying you know

1735
01:11:49,150 --> 01:11:46,490
gee I didn't really think that went very

1736
01:11:51,850 --> 01:11:49,160
well why don't we do a redo just trash

1737
01:11:54,550 --> 01:11:51,860
that whole thing and we'll do it over

1738
01:11:56,620 --> 01:11:54,560
now I've run into this before from

1739
01:11:58,630 --> 01:11:56,630
people who say a bunch of stuff and then

1740
01:12:01,150 --> 01:11:58,640
think about it later and don't quite

1741
01:12:03,310 --> 01:12:01,160
like what they said and my response was

1742
01:12:05,260 --> 01:12:03,320
my usual response which was I'm happy to

1743
01:12:08,830 --> 01:12:05,270
have you come back on I'm happy to have

1744
01:12:11,530 --> 01:12:08,840
you clarify elaborate correct anything

1745
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:11,540
you said but I'm really not inclined to

1746
01:12:16,450 --> 01:12:14,090
scrap that first interview well that

1747
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:16,460
really pissed him off again and he

1748
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:18,410
started calling me all these names and

1749
01:12:23,050 --> 01:12:20,090
making all these threats and doing all

1750
01:12:25,210 --> 01:12:23,060
this other crazy stuff now one thing I

1751
01:12:27,370 --> 01:12:25,220
mentioned I wanted to update you on is

1752
01:12:29,650 --> 01:12:27,380
my conversation with dr. Dean Radin

1753
01:12:30,550 --> 01:12:29,660
following this interview you'll recall

1754
01:12:34,030 --> 01:12:30,560
that during

1755
01:12:34,780 --> 01:12:34,040
interview IDI said I'm sad to report

1756
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:34,790
that

1757
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:36,770
Raiden's idea of consciousness and

1758
01:12:40,780 --> 01:12:38,810
wavefunctions is demonstrably

1759
01:12:43,990 --> 01:12:40,790
inconsistent with 80 years worth of

1760
01:12:47,500 --> 01:12:44,000
experiment in theory so I asked Dean and

1761
01:12:50,710 --> 01:12:47,510
now Dean if you don't know Dean Radin

1762
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:50,720
he's not only top-notch really knows his

1763
01:12:56,290 --> 01:12:53,570
stuff but he's one of the kinder and

1764
01:12:59,140 --> 01:12:56,300
nicer people you'll meet in this field

1765
01:13:02,350 --> 01:12:59,150
so he's never gonna bash anyone but what

1766
01:13:04,930 --> 01:13:02,360
he said in a very polite way is a couple

1767
01:13:07,870 --> 01:13:04,940
of things that are probably obvious to

1768
01:13:10,990 --> 01:13:07,880
most of you skeptical listeners first is

1769
01:13:14,170 --> 01:13:11,000
that Edie presupposes that he knows what

1770
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:14,180
consciousness is which is a dangerous

1771
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:16,130
assumption given that that's what we're

1772
01:13:20,440 --> 01:13:18,050
really trying to answer in the first

1773
01:13:21,910 --> 01:13:20,450
place but the other mistake he makes and

1774
01:13:24,190 --> 01:13:21,920
it hurts me because all these

1775
01:13:26,020 --> 01:13:24,200
materialists kind of totally distort the

1776
01:13:27,730 --> 01:13:26,030
history of quantum physics and a lot of

1777
01:13:29,650 --> 01:13:27,740
times they're physicists like Ed may as

1778
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:29,660
a physicist or you remember dr. Sean

1779
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:31,730
Carroll was on Harvard physicist and

1780
01:13:36,370 --> 01:13:34,250
they just tell a history of quantum

1781
01:13:39,490 --> 01:13:36,380
physics that's just the monstre bleep

1782
01:13:41,890 --> 01:13:39,500
wrong I mean in this case what Dean

1783
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:41,900
points out and what many of you will

1784
01:13:48,550 --> 01:13:45,770
know is that Dean's experiment set up to

1785
01:13:51,190 --> 01:13:48,560
see if individual a meditator can

1786
01:13:54,190 --> 01:13:51,200
collapse them wavefunction is a direct

1787
01:13:57,310 --> 01:13:54,200
test of the Vannoy 'men interpretation

1788
01:13:59,590 --> 01:13:57,320
of quantum physics John Van Neumann he

1789
01:14:02,530 --> 01:13:59,600
counts he matters but it's also

1790
01:14:04,630 --> 01:14:02,540
consistent with what Niels Bohr and

1791
01:14:06,730 --> 01:14:04,640
Schrodinger believed that the hey

1792
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:06,740
there's something mystical going on here

1793
01:14:11,740 --> 01:14:09,050
that consciousness is necessary to

1794
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:11,750
understand quantum physics if I remember

1795
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:12,410
correctly

1796
01:14:16,930 --> 01:14:14,810
Max Planck also has a famous quote out

1797
01:14:19,330 --> 01:14:16,940
there that consciousness is at the heart

1798
01:14:21,220 --> 01:14:19,340
of all this the point being not that one

1799
01:14:24,370 --> 01:14:21,230
of those people are right or wrong but

1800
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:24,380
to suggest that oh this is case closed

1801
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:26,210
this isn't even an issue in quantum

1802
01:14:30,670 --> 01:14:28,010
physics whether human consciousness

1803
01:14:32,940 --> 01:14:30,680
collapses the wavefunction is just to

1804
01:14:35,290 --> 01:14:32,950
borrow Ed's phrase demonstrable

1805
01:14:38,410 --> 01:14:35,300
inconsistent with what's been going on

1806
01:14:40,180 --> 01:14:38,420
for 80 years so I have one question that

1807
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:40,190
I'll tee up from this interview one of

1808
01:14:43,330 --> 01:14:42,050
many that I could tea up and I hope we

1809
01:14:45,700 --> 01:14:43,340
explore a lot

1810
01:14:48,310 --> 01:14:45,710
more questions in the forum but the one

1811
01:14:52,570 --> 01:14:48,320
question I T up is what do you make of

1812
01:14:55,510 --> 01:14:52,580
ads retro causation explanation for a

1813
01:14:58,540 --> 01:14:55,520
near-death experience and the broader

1814
01:15:00,879 --> 01:14:58,550
question is why do these guys fumble so

1815
01:15:03,100 --> 01:15:00,889
badly on the near-death experience

1816
01:15:06,010 --> 01:15:03,110
research as I tried to lay out in this

1817
01:15:07,870 --> 01:15:06,020
interview to me its basic you know we're

1818
01:15:10,570 --> 01:15:07,880
fighting over psy we're fighting over

1819
01:15:12,879 --> 01:15:10,580
does mind equal brain the near-death

1820
01:15:14,970 --> 01:15:12,889
experience stuff is the natural place

1821
01:15:17,260 --> 01:15:14,980
you go because now medically

1822
01:15:18,459 --> 01:15:17,270
physiologically we haven't understanding

1823
01:15:21,399 --> 01:15:18,469
what's going on in the brain that the

1824
01:15:23,379 --> 01:15:21,409
brain is not there so why wouldn't you

1825
01:15:25,540 --> 01:15:23,389
jump right into that to answer this

1826
01:15:27,870 --> 01:15:25,550
question but instead they seem to engage

1827
01:15:30,220 --> 01:15:27,880
in all these apologetics to kind of

1828
01:15:33,609 --> 01:15:30,230
harmonize it with what they think they

1829
01:15:36,220 --> 01:15:33,619
believe there I am overlaying my opinion

1830
01:15:38,620 --> 01:15:36,230
on this but it's hard to resist doing

1831
01:15:40,990 --> 01:15:38,630
that after all these shows but anyways

1832
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:41,000
I'm open to other opinions I'm open to

1833
01:15:45,879 --> 01:15:43,130
even if it pisses you off what I'm

1834
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:45,889
saying I'm open to hearing your point of

1835
01:15:50,979 --> 01:15:48,050
view and of course the place to do that

1836
01:15:54,910 --> 01:15:50,989
is through the sceptical website at sk

1837
01:15:57,189 --> 01:15:54,920
EP tik o comm from there you can leave a

1838
01:15:59,379 --> 01:15:57,199
comment directly or jump on over to the

1839
01:16:03,010 --> 01:15:59,389
forum where i'm sure we'll have a lively

1840
01:16:05,260 --> 01:16:03,020
discussion on this interview well I have

1841
01:16:07,660 --> 01:16:05,270
a number of interesting shows coming up

1842
01:16:09,820 --> 01:16:07,670
and I certainly hope you stay with me

1843
01:16:11,589 --> 01:16:09,830
for all of those I appreciate you

1844
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:11,599
joining me for this one and for being

1845
01:16:18,970 --> 01:16:15,290
part of this skeptic O show so until